Inheritance issues - part 2. AKA: Is FIL being manipulated and ripped off?

[ThornAmongstRoses]

This thread is for those who helped me on my previous thread about my FIL upping sticks, handing his a big chunk off his money over to his daughter to ultimately live in her garden. Sorry but I don’t know how to link to my previous thread.

The update from what happened last night when we confronted FIL with our concerns:

“And it turns out that SIL is 14 weeks pregnant.

Apparently when she and her partner first suggested the Cabin idea 6 months or so ago and FIL declined and said he was happy to buy somewhere so he wouldn’t be under their feet, she told him not to be silly as the arrangement would work out really well for all involved as she and her partner were hoping to have more children in the future but that they wouldn’t be able to unless they had a bigger house anyway. SIL then told him how much it would mean to her and how wonderful it would be for FIL to be around to watch new grandchildren be born and see them grow up, liked he’d been around when DB (my husband) had had his children. FIL then agreed that it would be really nice to be around for early days and from then onwards, and agreed it was something he would happy be to look into.

Anyway, it looks like SIL took that as him being board and to cut a long story short, she told FIL she was pregnant about 3 months ago but told him not to tell anyone as it was such early days (her prerogative so that’s fine). Anyhow, it appears that is why FIL put his house up for sale and sold it quickly so the new house could be bought in time for the baby’s arrival. Bit strange really seeing as the baby generally stays with the parents in their room for a good 6 months or so, but that’s the story FIL gave. Stinks of manipulation to me but FIL is clearly happy with what’s happened and he does seem excited about the idea of being around for the new baby.

We asked him what would become of the Cabin if he passed away and he said that wasn’t his problem (with a smile) and said that SIL and her partner could do whatever they liked with it.

He hasn’t looked into anything legal as he didn’t think it was necessary. We did advise it (and gave examples from this thread as reasons why he should) but he told us we are worrying unnecessarily. So that’s his choice to make.

We asked him about the time scale of him staying here which was slightly awkward but he promised us again he would only be here for a few months. We said that was unlikely and explained why (all the issues raised in this thread) but he said things would be moving along quickly and if there are any delays he would move out and rent somewhere near us until the cabin is built. I asked why he wasn’t going to rent over there to make sure he liked the area, but he said he wanted to spend as much time as he could with us before he moved away.

So yes, he seems to be going into this with an awareness of all the ins and outs and is happy to go along with it all, so that’s that. It’s all his decision and if he doesn’t take legal advice then that too is his choice.

We have told him we won’t be taking the offered £25k but thanked him for his offer. As has been said on this thread, he’s probably going to need a back-up fund.

FIL left about an hour ago and me and DH are off to bed now with a film as we feel drained. I just wanted to update you as I’ve had so much help and advice from you all.”

I had a PM this morning from a poster who had wanted to respond to my post last night but realised the thread was full so answered privately instead.

Anyhow - I just wanted to start a second thread as I’m sure others have lots of further advice based on my FIL’s revelation, and also because I doubt this is the end of the matter.

Me and DH struggled to sleep last night but we see it’s a done deal now and due to the pregnancy we know FIL isn’t going to back out the deal so now it’s a case of trying to get him to protect himself as best as he can.

Has this been applied for? Approved?

SIL and partner haven’t even started looking at houses yet, never mind purchased one and started to look at the issues of planning permission and approval.

I can’t believe how bloody stupid FIL is being. You couldn’t make it up. Who the hell sells their house based on a non-tangible dream of living in a Norwegian Cabin in a huge back garden of a house that doesn’t even exist yet?!

It’s so f**king ridiculous.

Surely you would be doing him a massive favour by suggesting he rents in Skegness now, before moving there permanently.

It might focus his mind on the reality of his situation, staying with you isn't going to do that.

@ThornAmongstRoses

Rightly or wrongly, realistically it’s very hard to tell a parent they can’t stay with you isn’t it?

As annoyed as DH is, it’s still his dad.

Yes @ThornAmongstRoses it is.

And it’s even harder to tell them to leave when 3 months have gone by and their bullshit plans haven’t progressed.

And it’s even harder to stay married with a happy family when living with a proven liar and fantasist.

You need to be tough now or even tougher later. Personally I’d go for the easier option and say no right now.

@ThornAmongstRoses

Has this been applied for? Approved?

SIL and partner haven’t even started looking at houses yet, never mind purchased one and started to look at the issues of planning permission and approval.

I can’t believe how bloody stupid FIL is being. You couldn’t make it up. Who the hell sells their house based on a non-tangible dream of living in a Norwegian Cabin in a huge back garden of a house that doesn’t even exist yet?!

It’s so f**king ridiculous.

I mean this is why he might as well just buy/rent & move to a place of his choosing!

If he wants to retire to Skeggy that's fair enough & his relationship with his daughter will either work or not.

It's not as if it's such a big place that any move made by his daughter will put them at a great distance from each other, is it?

OP,
I feel so sorry for you.

He really is selfish.

He knows you're genuinely concerned yet he laughs it off.

Extremely selfish and nasty.

A decent parent would agree to speak to a solicitor just to put your minds at rest, but he is deliberately refusing to do this.

Respectfully I would say to you his refusal, coupled with his lying tells me you don't know him as well as you think and he has another side to him.

The three months will be absolutely hell and I think however bad you think it may be, nothing is going to prepare you for the relentlessness of it.

Before he moves in I would strongly recommend that you agree with your husband that if you come to believe that your marriage may be permanently damaged, you ask him to leave.

I think you are putting him ahead of your children and I believe that is wrong.

He has absolutely put himself first in all of this and hasn't given ye a second thought.

Yet you both feel obligated to put him ahead of what is best for ye as a couple, children and family.

This is not good.

I guarantee you, you will be glad to see the back of him at the end of this.

If nothing else it may give ye some backbone to refuse him a fulltime home when this all comes crashing down.

I repeat, he is a very selfish, sly man.

Protect your marriage.

@FollowYourOwnNorthStar

Hey *@ThornAmongstRoses* I really think you should reconsider having him to stay. The atmosphere is going to be awkward - as bad as you think, but then with this grey cloud over the top.

Plus, what happens when he’s given the $ away to SIL, but they don’t do anything, and he tells you he can’t afford to rent somewhere?

You have to make it hurt/cost NOW. This plan will be a lot hard to go through without you and your DH letting him stay, and this should be your gift to him (although he won’t see it that way). Putting up some roadblocks so the idiocy and expense of it becomes clear.

Otherwise I can see you housing him forever, because SIL got the money, spent it and he has none left. And you feel you can’t kick him out, as then it really is kicking out your FIL when it is homeless.

Tell him to use the £25,000 pound she was going to give you to find his 3 month (probably forever), stay somewhere.

Don’t let yourselves be part of the lunacy. You’ve done your bit, now let go, let God, and let him stay somewhere else.

This is exactly how l think things will pan out. Your Sil will have a big house and in exchange you will have the fil to stay for good as he won’t have any money left to purchase a property. Please don’t let it happen to. You’ll regret it if he moves in with you. Your Fil has changed/ruined your relationship with you and your husband.

It’s so difficult. DH and SIL haven’t spoken since their argument on the phone the other day, there’s no way she’d speak to me because she dislikes me, so everything we hear is from FIL and who knows if what he’s saying is the full story.

It’s genuinely feels like they’ve got this big secret plan that we can’t be privy too and I don’t like it. The more I post about it and the more advice I receive the more ridiculous it seems.

I’m still concerned about him but I fear my worry is being replaced with anger

Just wonder will they need planning permission to build a lodge for him to live in, in a garden?

@ThornAmongstRoses

Rightly or wrongly, realistically it’s very hard to tell a parent they can’t stay with you isn’t it?

As annoyed as DH is, it’s still his dad.

The situation will only be harder once your FIL has moved into your home. If you think it's difficult, now, to tell him he can't move in with you for three months how much more wrenching will it be for you and your husband to tell him he needs to live elsewhere once all his/your SIL's plans come to nothing and he's financially unable to move out? 🌹

@ThornAmongstRoses

It’s so difficult. DH and SIL haven’t spoken since their argument on the phone the other day, there’s no way she’d speak to me because she dislikes me, so everything we hear is from FIL and who knows if what he’s saying is the full story.

It’s genuinely feels like they’ve got this big secret plan that we can’t be privy too and I don’t like it. The more I post about it and the more advice I receive the more ridiculous it seems.

I’m still concerned about him but I fear my worry is being replaced with anger

You’re angry? Good. You should be. Channel it and say no to him staying. Do not let his shitshow become yours.

"I’m still concerned about him but I fear my worry is being replaced with anger"

I'm not suprised!

He won't listen to you at all, but expects you to take him in when there's no need to.

He'd prefer to be living with you at no cost/effort to himself.

He's not thinking about the shifting about that you need to do or the extra effort that is entailed by having an extra adult about all the time.

@ThornAmongstRoses

It’s so difficult. DH and SIL haven’t spoken since their argument on the phone the other day, there’s no way she’d speak to me because she dislikes me, so everything we hear is from FIL and who knows if what he’s saying is the full story.

It’s genuinely feels like they’ve got this big secret plan that we can’t be privy too and I don’t like it. The more I post about it and the more advice I receive the more ridiculous it seems.

I’m still concerned about him but I fear my worry is being replaced with anger

I think it's good that you are finding your anger. You have been hoping I suppose that your FIL would see sense, or at least show signs of listening to the people who have really been there for him and who in refusing the 25k, have proven their integrity. Maybe he's been mostly nice and lovely up until now because he's never been really tested and because you guys see him that way because YOU are nice and lovely. The scales are falling from your eyes

FIL knows we have said he can stay here for 3 months and that’s it

So what happened to your DH's plan to tell him he can't stay?

Sorry just caught up. I wonder how true it is they do not need planning permission. Sadly I think your FIL is just going to learn the hard way and when it's too late.

I’m really, really going to miss my time alone. I have two days a week where I’m home alone for 6 hours and it’s what I survive the week for.

The rest of my time is taken up with work, the children, studying for a degree, general house stuff and volunteer work and my two days where I can just relax are what keep me going.

Don’t get me wrong, I know a lot of people don’t even have that time to themselves so I’m grateful of it.....but the thought of losing it is what I’m dreading. Sometimes during those days I just slob around in my pyjama bottoms, binge on crap TV, refuse to do any housework and eat lots of chocolate. But most of all I enjoy the quiet and nobody needing my attention.

I feel horrible saying all this, but it’s how I feel

So what happened to your DH's plan to tell him he can't stay?

He later felt guilty about it so the agreement then was that FIL could stay but with a set time limit of 3 months.

I fully understand taking your FIL in. I wouldn't be able to say no either, no matter how stupid the idea was.

But he better be prepared that we are sitting down and going through a timeline. Because if in two months time things are not fully in motion we are looking for a rental for him. The more in detail you are going to take this plan the more unrealistic it will become.

• If the cabin takes 6 weeks to build I doubt this is from the day of ordering. You will be lucky if its a month from ordering.
• Planning permission takes about 2 months.
• If the Cabin company really takes care of planning then it will take them at least a week or two to get the paperwork ready.
• They won't (or shouldn't) start building before they have planning permission.

So thats 4 months from ordering the cabin to moving in if they start building as soon as planning permission is given.

If no planning permission is needed (I doubt it) then 2 1/2 months from ordering.

So best case scenario your SIL has 2 weeks to:

• Get the promotion.
• Find this amazing house with a garden big enough for a cabin.
• Get a mortgage that will take her pay raise in consideration.
• Put an offer in and have it accepted.
• Complete the sale.

And this only if they don't have a house to sell themselves. If they do then a lot of estate agents won't even consider your offer on a house before yours is sold at the moment.

All this is putting your SIL under pressure to settle for a house she might not even like. Which will increase that chances they will want to sell in a few years time.

I would also be printing off a few of the stories on here, about your SIL needing to pay for FIL care in the future, to show him. And I would also send them to SIL. At least they should both be fully aware that they might lose the house and put SIL under a lot of financial pressure.

Hi OP,
I have read all of your posts but not every post so sorry if I repeat advice.

If your FIL is going ahead and simply gifting the money into SIL's house as it sounds like he is can you encourage him to at least ensure he keeps hold of his money until the house with garden space is being purchased (e.g. only transferring it to the solicitor as the house is being bought) as although there could still potentially be many problems if he gives SIL the money now the money could be spent and the new house with space might not even be bought. As I know others have pointed out if she is going on maternity leave she might not be able to get the mortgage that she needs. They might have poor credit or too many outgoings and not be able to get the mortgage required either. They could simply pay the money off their existing mortgage and then say they are unable to move - sorry.

Similarly for the purchase of the cabin. The money should not go to SIL it should go to the cabin firm but this also needs to be carefully considered to guard against the firm going bust holding FILs money. I'm not familiar with the process but perhaps there is a deposit and balance paid on completion? I would also want to know much more about the firm- how long it has been in operation, recommendations etc. What will be FILs plan be if the cabin cannot get permission to be built or to be used as a residence (and I think they are two different things).

I noticed you said SIL is not married. Will she hold the house jointly? What precautions could be put in place if SIL dies and her partner owns the entire house. FIL could then be kicked out or the house sold and homeless. How can it be ensured that he gets some money back? He could insist on a charge against the house with the land registry but this could make it difficult for SIL to get a mortgage. At the very least the mortgage would want the "first charge" and FIL the "second charge". Without this all money could also be lost if the SIL/partner went bancrupt or were repossessed.

If he is determined to do this then he should at least make sure that he gets what he is paying for.

I wonder if there is any potential for adjacent properties for SIL/FIL or the purchase of a property with a proper brick built annexe/barn conversion where there was potential for independent access and to split the title with the land registry so that FIL owned his own property in the event of split/SIL's death...

I think it is a realistic possibility that SILs family won't be able to get a bigger mortgage. They might not even be able to get a new mortgage of the size that they already have (it depends obviously on their income and outgoings/credit rating/whether they can port their existing mortgage etc) so the budget for the new property might not be as large as they hope.

If they have say 100K equity it might be easier for FIL just to chuck in his lot (no cabin) making it say 300k but with no mortgage required it would be easier for the house to be held as tenants in common or to have a legal charge registered against it to protect your FILs money. If they get a mortgage he is likely to have to declare any money he puts in as a gift.

I know it's impossible to talk to him but I would type the risks out and print it and send him home with it so that he has time to actually take it in without going on the defensive.

-> The likelihood of getting planning permission for the cabin.

-> The likelihood of his daughter finding and buying her dream house (with his money) but being unable to get the planning permission and him finding somewhere to live WITHOUT his 90k.

-> The likelihood of being happy living at the bottom of his daughter's partner's garden given their relationship.

-> The life span of the cabin is about 20 years max. Does he intend to conveniently die at 85 or...?

-> His daughter is pregnant and unlikely to get the hoped-for promotion now (this is illegal but is the unfortunate reality). She will therefore not be able to get her bigger mortgage, even with his contribution. So what is his long term plan?

-> What happens if his daughter breaks up with her partner and the house is sold, leaving him homeless. Where is his 90k? Will he ringfence that when the house is bought to protect him in this eventuality?

I would set out the advantages (in writing) to buying a home independently in Skegness and giving his daughter very slightly less for her bigger house.

Include a few Rightmove links to nice bungalows in Skegness around the £180k mark, and explain that he deserves freedom and independence in his old age, and this way he can have the best of both worlds. He can support his daughter in her dreams, AND have security for himself.

Explain that this takes the pressure OFF his daughter as she won't have the (lol) anxiety of knowing that he is effectively homeless if she is unable to buy her house immediately.

65 is far too young to be doing what he is talking about.

I don't blame you for letting him stay. It also means you keep the moral high ground. He is your fil after all.

You can also talk to him about this and try and, at least, make him question the legalities of it all. Or you'll probably just get fed up and not mention it again. It's a case of grit your teeth for three months. But I would stand firm on the timescales. Otherwise it could end up being 18/24 months, your sil getting her 90k and you're living expenses go through the roof

@ThornAmongstRoses

I’m really, really going to miss my time alone. I have two days a week where I’m home alone for 6 hours and it’s what I survive the week for.

The rest of my time is taken up with work, the children, studying for a degree, general house stuff and volunteer work and my two days where I can just relax are what keep me going.

Don’t get me wrong, I know a lot of people don’t even have that time to themselves so I’m grateful of it.....but the thought of losing it is what I’m dreading. Sometimes during those days I just slob around in my pyjama bottoms, binge on crap TV, refuse to do any housework and eat lots of chocolate. But most of all I enjoy the quiet and nobody needing my attention.

I feel horrible saying all this, but it’s how I feel

You are not selfish - you are human. You have agency. Use it.

If FIL won't listen or get legal advice then get SIL to cool on the idea by pointing out that in 10 years or so if he needs care they are going to be coming after her for the 90k, would she still want to go ahead if it meant gambling her future house on whether he needs care or not?

You're going to have him for longer than 3 months, too.

SIL has to find a house - 2 months+
Apply for a mortgage - 2 weeks?
Buy it - 2 months
Apply for planning permission - 2 months
Book cabin company - they'll start work in about 2 months after quoting, depending on their workload
Building work - 1 - 2 months

So that's a minimum of 9 months, probably more like 12.

Has your DH pointed out tge financial risks to her if she goes through with this and takes his money. She and her partner might be happier anticipating getting their hands on FIL's money but may be completely unaware they could find themselves withva massive bill due to deprivation of assets if FIL needs care. If they were made aware they might change their minds in their own interest and you could protect your FIL by the back door. If your DH could appear to offercan olive branch, say you've seen the cabin brochure and how keen FIL is to be around her children. Point out it's actually going to take a lot of responsibility from you and it's lovely they want to be there to look after him in his old age, as you are aware it can be very stressful. Particularly as the arrangement could leave them with a huge care bill due to him passing such large assets over to her. Have they planned how they would cover that financially as you would hate for them to lose their home over it. It may seem a bit manipulative but if you emphasise you hadn't appreciated the risk they were taking on when you first heard of it, and now you do it may make them stop and think.

I just want to bang his head against a wall and ask how it is that he can’t see what’s going on underneath his nose? How can someone be so naive? Or unaware?