Inheritance issues - part 2. AKA: Is FIL being manipulated and ripped off?

[ThornAmongstRoses]

This thread is for those who helped me on my previous thread about my FIL upping sticks, handing his a big chunk off his money over to his daughter to ultimately live in her garden. Sorry but I don’t know how to link to my previous thread.

The update from what happened last night when we confronted FIL with our concerns:

“And it turns out that SIL is 14 weeks pregnant.

Apparently when she and her partner first suggested the Cabin idea 6 months or so ago and FIL declined and said he was happy to buy somewhere so he wouldn’t be under their feet, she told him not to be silly as the arrangement would work out really well for all involved as she and her partner were hoping to have more children in the future but that they wouldn’t be able to unless they had a bigger house anyway. SIL then told him how much it would mean to her and how wonderful it would be for FIL to be around to watch new grandchildren be born and see them grow up, liked he’d been around when DB (my husband) had had his children. FIL then agreed that it would be really nice to be around for early days and from then onwards, and agreed it was something he would happy be to look into.

Anyway, it looks like SIL took that as him being board and to cut a long story short, she told FIL she was pregnant about 3 months ago but told him not to tell anyone as it was such early days (her prerogative so that’s fine). Anyhow, it appears that is why FIL put his house up for sale and sold it quickly so the new house could be bought in time for the baby’s arrival. Bit strange really seeing as the baby generally stays with the parents in their room for a good 6 months or so, but that’s the story FIL gave. Stinks of manipulation to me but FIL is clearly happy with what’s happened and he does seem excited about the idea of being around for the new baby.

We asked him what would become of the Cabin if he passed away and he said that wasn’t his problem (with a smile) and said that SIL and her partner could do whatever they liked with it.

He hasn’t looked into anything legal as he didn’t think it was necessary. We did advise it (and gave examples from this thread as reasons why he should) but he told us we are worrying unnecessarily. So that’s his choice to make.

We asked him about the time scale of him staying here which was slightly awkward but he promised us again he would only be here for a few months. We said that was unlikely and explained why (all the issues raised in this thread) but he said things would be moving along quickly and if there are any delays he would move out and rent somewhere near us until the cabin is built. I asked why he wasn’t going to rent over there to make sure he liked the area, but he said he wanted to spend as much time as he could with us before he moved away.

So yes, he seems to be going into this with an awareness of all the ins and outs and is happy to go along with it all, so that’s that. It’s all his decision and if he doesn’t take legal advice then that too is his choice.

We have told him we won’t be taking the offered £25k but thanked him for his offer. As has been said on this thread, he’s probably going to need a back-up fund.

FIL left about an hour ago and me and DH are off to bed now with a film as we feel drained. I just wanted to update you as I’ve had so much help and advice from you all.”

I had a PM this morning from a poster who had wanted to respond to my post last night but realised the thread was full so answered privately instead.

Anyhow - I just wanted to start a second thread as I’m sure others have lots of further advice based on my FIL’s revelation, and also because I doubt this is the end of the matter.

Me and DH struggled to sleep last night but we see it’s a done deal now and due to the pregnancy we know FIL isn’t going to back out the deal so now it’s a case of trying to get him to protect himself as best as he can.

Apologies if this has already been raised but if she's going to get a better paid job, work 2 months at least in it and then apply for the big mortgage won't she by that time be on mat leave? That'll screw up the banks affordability tests, they aren't securing their big mortgage anytime soon and you will have fil with you a long time

So stressful for you all Op. No advice, just hope you're able to find a way through that doesn't end too badly for you all.

I read your first post and was literally :O that neither party thought it should be a family discussion and went behind your backs. Maybe it's the kind of family I have, but there is no way one of my siblings would coerce my parent in to a done deal like this without SOME sort of heads up!

I understand he wants to live near the sea and build a relationship with dd and grandchildren like he has with you all but the plan is mad.

Is there any way you can open this up to a family discussion? It is in everyone's interest to talk/think this through thoroughly.

Inheritance aside (I agree with pps saying there could easily be none if he had to go in to care in the future), he is throwing money away on the cabin. It's unlikely to be a viable home for him in 20 years due to his age, imagine the state it'll be in too!

If he needs care social services will look into this transaction, SIL might be forced to sell her family home.

If it all goes tits up you likely will help him, even though you don't want to, so you have a right to intervene.

If he wants to give her money to move now you can't argue, but he should buy himself a little place down the road instead of the cabin. That way you can visit him, because if he moves in with them - based on your dh and sil previous relationship - you may find loose your relationship with FIL.

@Miasicarisatia

I can confirm from experience that LAs will put the fear of God into you if deliberate deprivation of assets has occurred surely this will make many people run away in fear and refuse to have anything to do with the finances of elderly relatives!

Why would they? Surely most people don’t help themselves to their parents’ money? If everything is above board there’s nothing to fear, it’s people trying to be too clever by half and trying to avoid inheritance tax and care home fees that get into trouble.

This is quite telling...

DH then says that renting is wasted money and if he needs somewhere to stay for a few months in between houses then he can stay with us.

^Because you will be doing the "wife work" to the detriment of your own mental health and that of your DC - who let's face it, great when grandad visits but need to develop their own social circle, education etc. growing up.

If this goes ahead I see divorce in the future....

Maybe find a fucking fabulous therapist OP.

The whole thing is just a nightmare-in-waiting.....

Sorry to bring it like that. You sound lovely and caring.

So glad to hear that your DH has decided to put his foot down. It's absolutely fine for the SIL to get what she gets. Great for FIL to give what he gives. But if the only people who have to suffer any consequences at all are you and DH, that's where the house of cards fall down. I'd be so resentful I think DH and my marriage wouldn't be in a good place if I had to share a house with his DF because his DS ripped him off.

People need to feel the consequences of their actions. It might stop FIL handing over the 100K for the cabin as well as the money for the house.

OP - I agree with the pp’s who say now is the time to step back. Continue to protect and support your DH and DC.

However, I would probably put your decision/reasoning in writing. I would highlight the many great reasons on the two threads - the most important being, do FIL and SIL realise the implications re deprivation of assets.

FIL May have “smiled” re query re cabin when he’s gone, but does he realise that it could be a prolonged period before he “goes” - and that his DD could lose everything if LA pursue their assets.

There was someone much further upthread who laid it out perfectly. Put in writing your concerns, add links/info as to how he should protect himself / query why he couldn’t buy his own place after gifting SIL the £90k to upgrade her house.

Then, step away. You’ve done all that you can - if he/they continue then that’s on them.

Horrible situation - am not at all surprised your DH (and you) feel worried.

Again, as pp poster queried - will new house be in joint names. Or will her DP be the only name on the deeds - that is the biggest flag you need to look out for,

I wonder how much debt SIL is in that hasn’t been divulged

Like the suggestion that instead of gifting the money it could be put to FIL that he should be part owner in the HOUSE "to protect his daughter and grandkids" so bil doesn't get a windfall if they split.

@Alsohuman

I can't understand why they have dreamt up the cabin idea, do they have another motive for it? Home office/ gym perhaps?

Stupidity? A mate who owns a cabin company who’ll give them a backhander? Airbnb? Fuck knows how these idiots’ minds work.

because they know they have to offer him to live with them to get the £90K for their own home, but they dont actually want him to, hence not buying a home with an annexe. They are either planning on just using the £90K and then saying permission was refused, but its OK cos FIL still has his £100K so theyve had their 'half' - or that he can use it to buy a smaller house, as he should have done in the first place.

my suspicion is they want to get their hands on what they see as their half of their inheritance, and have no plans at all about the cabin

or they are very very stupid and have no understanding of deprivation of assets or planning control

FIL came round last night to show us the brochure properly (we’d only previously scanned it) and they can be used for 365 days a year as residential accommodation, it says they don’t usually require planning permission and the company will deal with that if it arises (there was a blurb about providing a certificate of lawful use). Apparently it only takes 6 weeks from ordering one to it being built and it also says there is an indefinite lifespan on them.

FIL showed us the floor plan of the one he wanted and said it’s just over £90k in total.

Things were so tense when he came over and there seems to be a level of awkwardness between him and DH. It was really uncomfortable.

I’m going to go and see FIL myself later and really talk it through with him. We have a really good relationship and in some ways I think he will listen to me more than he will DH.

I still can't get my head around wanting to live in a cabin that you have no say over the grounds of in your older years when you could afford a house. It would look very much like deprivation of assets, surely?

@ThornAmongstRoses

FIL came round last night to show us the brochure properly (we’d only previously scanned it) and they can be used for 365 days a year as residential accommodation, it says they don’t usually require planning permission and the company will deal with that if it arises (there was a blurb about providing a certificate of lawful use). Apparently it only takes 6 weeks from ordering one to it being built and it also says there is an indefinite lifespan on them.

FIL showed us the floor plan of the one he wanted and said it’s just over £90k in total.

Things were so tense when he came over and there seems to be a level of awkwardness between him and DH. It was really uncomfortable.

I’m going to go and see FIL myself later and really talk it through with him. We have a really good relationship and in some ways I think he will listen to me more than he will DH.

None of it really explains why living in the garden seems a good option though.

It might onl take 6weeks to build, but how long will it take for his daughter to sell & find a new place?

He could buy somewhere now & be in & settled to help his daughter & family with their move!

After reading both threads there seems to be a minefield of issues for you SIL and your FIL. Even when you take out the inheritance issue with your DH.

Tax implications, care implications, capital gains tax, what happens in 20 yrs time when the cabin needs replacing, what happens if SIL & BIL divorce, what happens if FIL needs to go into a care home. What happens if SIL wants to move, what happens if someone loses their job or gets health issues and can't pay the mortgage, what happens if the house is repossessed, what happens if BIL or SIL dies. It makes my head hurt and I don't even know any of them

It would look very much like deprivation of assets, surely?

I’m actually a little concerned that this is what he’s intentionally doing without being aware of the ramifications. Same as offering to give me and DH a big chunk of money.....why?

He used to joke years ago about signing his house over to me and DH so he wouldn’t have to pay care home fees (lightheartedly) but now I’m wondering if he genuinely thinks it’s that simple, and so is kind of doing it via this method.

@ThornAmongstRoses

FIL came round last night to show us the brochure properly (we’d only previously scanned it) and they can be used for 365 days a year as residential accommodation, it says they don’t usually require planning permission and the company will deal with that if it arises (there was a blurb about providing a certificate of lawful use). Apparently it only takes 6 weeks from ordering one to it being built and it also says there is an indefinite lifespan on them.

FIL showed us the floor plan of the one he wanted and said it’s just over £90k in total.

Things were so tense when he came over and there seems to be a level of awkwardness between him and DH. It was really uncomfortable.

I’m going to go and see FIL myself later and really talk it through with him. We have a really good relationship and in some ways I think he will listen to me more than he will DH.

I think this is a really good idea. Often my BIL has more cut through with my dad than his own children.

Be calm, don't say anything personal about SIL.

Say you think it's great that you want to move to the coast for retirement be near his other GC etc

But he is walking into a legal mess and needs to plan for the worst and hope for the best.

I genuinely just cannot fathom why he would want to live in a cabin rather than his own home near to SIL.

You need to talk about all the very real examples on this thread - it's bloody frightening

Also you need to talk timescales - she's pregnant, is she going to get her promotion? Is she going to get her higher wage long enough to apply for a bigger mortgage? Realistically, when will she be able to put her house on the market and get the ball rolling?

Keep it factual. Have a few house options to show him.

"It would look very much like deprivation of assets, surely?"

I agree.

Money to his daughter would I think mean that as far as care home fees are concerned he has a claim on their house.

The cabin is effectively throwing money away & maybe that would be charged against the house even though it would add little/no value?

So he could leave his daughter in the shit!

@ThornAmongstRoses He needs presenting with the facts regarding care in later life and DoAssets. He might not be so ready to go this route.
Also - who's idea was the cabin anyway? He wanted to get himself a small property originally? He could still do this, and is probably best solution, however I think he should rent somewhere at skeg for 6 months when the new baby comes and try out a winter in Skeg!

£90k on a static is ridiculous and will lose a massive amount of 'value' as soon as it's sited. Around here, you very much do need planning permission to site something like that.

It's highly likely to need planning. Never trust a company- check it out for yourselves.

I bet there will be small print in the brochure that says the purchaser is liable for all costs relating to planning permission, so they will “deal with it” but you’ll have to foot the bill.

Yes yes to SIL very precarious position regarding sector & pregnancy. I just think it's a non-starter regarding promotion, and even continuation of employment!! Can't be very senior if they have a tiny house in Skegness? All too tenuous, making Ng the whole thing such a ridiculous gamble.

What does her partner do, as a job?

I’d also ask him if there is anything about the lifespan of these cabins? If they’re only guaranteed for, say, 20 years then, given the fact he’s only 65 and could easily live another 25/30 years, he’s going to be looking at either being homeless or having to fork out another £90k.

If it is something to live in permanently it's hard to see how planning permission isn't needed isn't it?

Also - sorry to keep banging on, but I am too concerned, clearly! - the cabin company will of course say 'they will deal with it if pp is rrquired', but you cannot put yourself and your life savings into their hands and trust they will sort it in your favour. He must do his own homework, and speak to the local council and check their position. This 'assurance' means absolutely nothing and shows your FIL to be dreadfully naive.