Inheritance issues - part 2. AKA: Is FIL being manipulated and ripped off?

[ThornAmongstRoses]

This thread is for those who helped me on my previous thread about my FIL upping sticks, handing his a big chunk off his money over to his daughter to ultimately live in her garden. Sorry but I don’t know how to link to my previous thread.

The update from what happened last night when we confronted FIL with our concerns:

“And it turns out that SIL is 14 weeks pregnant.

Apparently when she and her partner first suggested the Cabin idea 6 months or so ago and FIL declined and said he was happy to buy somewhere so he wouldn’t be under their feet, she told him not to be silly as the arrangement would work out really well for all involved as she and her partner were hoping to have more children in the future but that they wouldn’t be able to unless they had a bigger house anyway. SIL then told him how much it would mean to her and how wonderful it would be for FIL to be around to watch new grandchildren be born and see them grow up, liked he’d been around when DB (my husband) had had his children. FIL then agreed that it would be really nice to be around for early days and from then onwards, and agreed it was something he would happy be to look into.

Anyway, it looks like SIL took that as him being board and to cut a long story short, she told FIL she was pregnant about 3 months ago but told him not to tell anyone as it was such early days (her prerogative so that’s fine). Anyhow, it appears that is why FIL put his house up for sale and sold it quickly so the new house could be bought in time for the baby’s arrival. Bit strange really seeing as the baby generally stays with the parents in their room for a good 6 months or so, but that’s the story FIL gave. Stinks of manipulation to me but FIL is clearly happy with what’s happened and he does seem excited about the idea of being around for the new baby.

We asked him what would become of the Cabin if he passed away and he said that wasn’t his problem (with a smile) and said that SIL and her partner could do whatever they liked with it.

He hasn’t looked into anything legal as he didn’t think it was necessary. We did advise it (and gave examples from this thread as reasons why he should) but he told us we are worrying unnecessarily. So that’s his choice to make.

We asked him about the time scale of him staying here which was slightly awkward but he promised us again he would only be here for a few months. We said that was unlikely and explained why (all the issues raised in this thread) but he said things would be moving along quickly and if there are any delays he would move out and rent somewhere near us until the cabin is built. I asked why he wasn’t going to rent over there to make sure he liked the area, but he said he wanted to spend as much time as he could with us before he moved away.

So yes, he seems to be going into this with an awareness of all the ins and outs and is happy to go along with it all, so that’s that. It’s all his decision and if he doesn’t take legal advice then that too is his choice.

We have told him we won’t be taking the offered £25k but thanked him for his offer. As has been said on this thread, he’s probably going to need a back-up fund.

FIL left about an hour ago and me and DH are off to bed now with a film as we feel drained. I just wanted to update you as I’ve had so much help and advice from you all.”

I had a PM this morning from a poster who had wanted to respond to my post last night but realised the thread was full so answered privately instead.

Anyhow - I just wanted to start a second thread as I’m sure others have lots of further advice based on my FIL’s revelation, and also because I doubt this is the end of the matter.

Me and DH struggled to sleep last night but we see it’s a done deal now and due to the pregnancy we know FIL isn’t going to back out the deal so now it’s a case of trying to get him to protect himself as best as he can.

Just echoing others. When the company says they will “deal with” planning if needed, they mean that they will carry put the work to get the permission but your FIL will be paying for it.

As he gets older, presume he would like some peace and quiet ? The garden will have kids and kids stuff in for the next 10+ years, whilst that might be lovely at first it might be wearing all the time.

'indefinite lifespan' - does that mean it hasn't been monitored? Of course it hasn't - not over 20-30 yes before they are put on the market! I bet there is no guarantee or warranty on lifespan, beyond 12 months! The statement is totally meant ngless, but of course portrays a positive unquestionable longevity that has zero legal standing.

Why does he want to buy something that will be rotting into pieces in 20 years and will lose value as soon as it is sited when he could buy something on his own land that will maintain or appreciate it’s value in 20 years? What do you think he would say if you ask him that question?
If he intends to give SIL money to buy a bigger house regardless then why is he essentially throwing away another £90 on an unsaleable rapidly depreciating item?
Has the SIL already got all the money- do you know if funds have been transferred to her from his house sale?

FIL is burying his enormous emotional loss, and worry over meaningful life in retirement in a disastrous pipe dream

Op read up on the local development management plans for the area or pm me and I can advise you of them ( I am a qualified planner) and the likelihood of getting it.

In my area to get a “granny annex” this needs to be shown that the accommodation iss designed for someone needing some care and moreover only allowed if the cabin is such that it can’t be used as a separate household eg to rent out or holiday let . Planning conditions will be put on any permission preventing that.. So this depends on the layout and accommodations. Generally anything which looks like someone could lead an independent life probably means they don’t fulfill the criteria for a granny annex which are designed for people needing a certain amount of care where some meals etc would be provided. So just a rudimentary kitchen facilities and no place to do his own laundry would be typical . Given it would have a separate entrance anyhow, the garden layout would be looked at to see if the garden would remain shared or if part could theoretically be hived off. Rules for this tend to be more stricter in holiday areas to prevent growth of Air BandB for example so in the area you have mentioned , holiday area near the sea, I would expect the rules to be quite strict.

A Certificate of lawful use is only applicable if the cabin is not noticed for 4 years which unless the property is in the middle of nowhere is highly unlikely . And a C o LU is not straightforward to apply for proof Affidavits etc required
And then when it falls into dilapidation , the cycle starts all over again.Very bad idea to rely on getting one of those.

@2beesornot2beesthatisthehoney Just to add - for the company to talk about CoLU is quite telling, because once the cabin has been paid for and sited, they have your money and the risk and depreciation is already on you (notwithstanding they will deal with the paperwork!)

By coincidence I was watching “Love It Or Leave It” last night and one of the couples were weighing up whether to build an annexe extension for the woman’s elderly father or to put a cabin in the garden, which would be significantly cheaper (they quoted £30k so the ones your FIL is looking at must be gold-plated to cost £90k!)

They opted for the annexe on the basis that the space would have multiple uses over time and actually add value to the property.

Planning will be needed if its going to be slept in. Its not that easy to connect to sewage system if its in a rear garden as generally sited at the front of the house so will require massive groundwork and then re-landscaping the garden and thats assuming its on same level and sewage doesnt have to be pumped up-hill. He will need to allow several £1000's just to get it connected, a concrete base, putting the garden back together, a path etc and then all the electrics, fittings, internet etc. Unless they give the poor guy a hose pipe and a compost toilet. Wood cabins generally also have to be painted / treated yearly.

Planning will be needed if its going to be slept in

This 100% This is a given .

The get out clause for the company is that the cabins they supply might be for other purposes- yoga room, games room.,etc all incidental to use of the main house.

Where I live you can have an informal discussion with planner about any future planning application. If the new SIL house has neighbours I can see they won't want a possible airbnb in their nextdoor garden. Contact planning Skegness, a phone call can probably be easily arranged.
Chalet Might be refused.
Sorry if this has already been covered.

My H is 65. I just told him about this thread; he considered for a moment and then said there's no fool like and old fool.

A bereaved 65 year old and his money are easily parted.

Can you explain to him, you don't want him to not go, but you want him to have quiet time alone time.
If FIL buys in a bungalow or a retirement flat, he won't have to pay much more and he will have new friends, he can visit SIL everyday .
Remind him of what it was like when his children were young, the noise, the sound of children playing, and him having a bolt hole to escape.
Ask him if he really wants some policing his comings and goings. Will he enjoy having a bedtime.

And who is going to be paying the energy bills, the water bill, the up-keep, the insurance etc on this cabin? That's after someone pays for the plumbing, wiring and waste to be installed. Because I'm pretty sure none of that is included in the £90k. That's just for the shell. It's bonkers.

I know for a lot of poster's in their 30's and early 40's ....65 may seem old, but believe me it really isn't.

I know loads that are incredibly active, fit, fully engaged with their wonderful, full lives.

The combination of duplicity/stupidity/unbelievable naivety of the FIL is astonishing.

The poster's who generously told their stories of dealing with LA's when they start looking into an elderly person's finances are not to be sneezed at.

Respectfully I would say, unless he has a truly gold plated pension to enjoy when he retires, FIL is not particularly financially comfortable.

For him to be handing it over so early in his life is extraordinary.

He could be gifted huge longevity but live in real poverty because of his stupidity.

SIL's partner clearly does not give a shit about FIL and will take his share of any house including the huge deposit and not care a whit.

Telling his solicitor is a wise idea.

Is there anything more stressful than having a stupid person in the family that can't be told anything.
Beyond frustrating.

I feel for the OP as it sounds as if they are not careful they could end up carrying a HUGE burden in the future when things go tits up, just when they could want to be funding university for their children.

In this instance, having done everything to prevent this disaster, the children's needs would come first.

To me he has the choice and funds to purchase an appreciating asset (bungalow) and instead is throwing a huge amount of money and the last of his nest egg away on a depreciating glorified garden shed that will soon be worthless and can't be sold anyway.

All the family drama aside, it comes down to a financial decision that is so ill-advised that it seems a medical/mental health evaluation is warranted.

Why would a relatively young man impoverish himself in this manner?

Why?

Maybe the father-in-law feels that if he starts out in the 'shed' he will end up in the main house? that they will inevitably feel sorry for him as he ages and becomes more frail and they will draw him into the bosom of the family ...perhaps that's what he unconsciously is looking for?

I know for a lot of poster's in their 30's and early 40's ....65 may seem old, but believe me it really isn't.

I was surprised to read on previous thread 65 is too old for a move to the coast. As soon as we retire we'll no longer have to factor work in where we live -we've had numeraous moves around UK governed by work - so I'd be looking for where kids are and what we'll need and want going forward.

Though I am always surpised about people who retire to the countryside then complain about lack of servcies.

This is a bad way to do any kind of move at any age making yourself dependent long term on other people's good behavior/intentions.

Oh I just had a very twisted thought.

Maybe FIL HAS thought through all that, and is doing it to punish his DD for being grasping - maybe he actually knows about the deprivation of assets thing after all, and knows that if he has to go into a home, his DD and her despicable partner would end up having to sell their new house to fund it?

That is very twisted though, and it's not very likely.

I for one am now extremely grateful for this thread, as it has alerted me to the "deprivation of assets" situation, which I hadn't remembered/known was a thing that had no time limit any more - so thank you @ThornAmongstRoses, and those of you who have contributed your horror stories, for which I have the utmost sympathy.

I really hope you can get through to your FIL, Thorn - but I somehow doubt it. And I hope that your DH stands firm on the "no you can't stay with us while you treat us so shabbily" but also that he can rebuild a relationship with his dad.

I think the way this situation is unfolding that you need to see a solicitor yourselves as FIL seems too blind or unwilling to consider how he may be walking I to financial and legal jeopardy if he needs any kind of care in The future. Particularly In the case of local authorities
Then you will have some proper information.
It’s not too much then to say he can’t stay unless he agrees to see a solicitor.
He wants to bask in the credit for being generous but he’s throwing away his financial independence and ultimately expects his children to be responsible if it all goes pear shaped.
It’s not about inheritance in these days of care costs.
It’s about not being a burden to your children when you have the where with all not to be. I can’t imagine doing this to my kids.
He literally wants to have his cake and eat it.
As for SIL “Eaten bread is soon forgotten”

This article on deprivation of assets and using Tenants in Common on a house instead of Joint Tenancy is interesting. I don't know much about legal matters so advice from a solicitor would be needed!

www.aprilking.co.uk/blog/deprivation-of-assets-guide/

I wouldn't bother steering him towards buying his own property there. He'll be arriving to a SIL who apparently dislikes him anyway, and a resentful DD who now can't buy a bigger house. Would he be well supported under those circumstances?

@ThornAmongstRoses

It would look very much like deprivation of assets, surely?

I’m actually a little concerned that this is what he’s intentionally doing without being aware of the ramifications. Same as offering to give me and DH a big chunk of money.....why?

He used to joke years ago about signing his house over to me and DH so he wouldn’t have to pay care home fees (lightheartedly) but now I’m wondering if he genuinely thinks it’s that simple, and so is kind of doing it via this method.

I am not sure this would be seen as deprivation of assets. It might be, but your FIL is only 65 and presumably fit and healthy.

From the AgeUK link below

"What if I gave my money or home away a long time ago?
The timing is important. The council will look at when you reduced your assets and see if, at the time, you could reasonably expect that you would need care and support. The local authority must decide based on all the case facts and clear reasons, which could be challenged.

If you were fit and healthy, and could not have imagined needing care and support at the time, then it may not count as deprivation of assets."

www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/care/paying-for-care/paying-for-a-care-home/deprivation-of-assets/

However as others have said there are many other reasons it is a very foolish plan, it would be far more sensible to buy his own flat/bungalow/whatever rather than a log cabin in SIL's garden. The cabin will depreciate and possibly become uninhabitable in his lifetime, and if the relationship with SIL deteriorates he is absolutely stuck - he will have nothing to sell and nowhere to go.

He really needs to speak to a solicitor, I hope you can persuade him to do that.

@ThornAmongstRoses

Thank you for your updates, and so sorry about all the tension. It seems so much of this could have been avoided if FIL had just been honest with you all.

I'm glad people have found the info I and others have shared around DDoAssets has been helpful. As I've said, until you're dealing with it, you don't realise how much councils / the states can interfere, for want of a better word, into things that you would assume come under the right to a private / family life - when it comes to approaching the state for help, it seems all that goes out the window. And there is often little room for nuance.

Even the rules and regs around planning are quite intrusive. I understand why they are there, to prevent environmental impact, effect on neighbours and the wider community etc, but my council has passed some bizarre planning decisions, blatantly due to a bit of cronyism and corporate pressure / incentivism even when public consultation has shown an overwhelmingly negative response. Rightly or wrongly it does happen - of course the likelihood of such interference in a private dwelling scenario is a different thing, however, you do still have to deal with bureaucracy, and pay for the privilege, and are tied to their timescales.

If yon cabin only takes 6 weeks to complete - great - but if the planning application throws up issues you could be in for a much longer haul of to-ing and fro-ing before the first component touches ground - not forgetting at the moment the garden is hypothetical - no new house has been identified, let alone secured, and the whole thing hinges on pregnant SIL getting her promotion at work which may be a minefield all of its own.

The spectre of DDof Assets having been mentioned "jokingly" by FIL in the past does, in my opinion, amplify the volume of the alarm bells already ringing.

It's still all a God awful mess with no quick and easy resolution financially or emotionally, but we're with you OP.

"If you were fit and healthy, and could not have imagined needing care and support at the time, then it may not count as deprivation of assets."

That's very wooly isn't it?

I mean if I go the same as my mum/grandmother I'll be young & it will be after a short spell in hospital.

The same as my dad then 90s with dementia & some years in a care home.

Now, to be the same as my dad, I'm talking the best part of 40 yrs in the future!

Does that mean that I can't imagine needing care in the (distant) future?

Also, my Dad having a house as an asset meant that he got a good choice of places & spent his years well looked after & cared about.