Inheritance issues - part 2. AKA: Is FIL being manipulated and ripped off?

[ThornAmongstRoses]

This thread is for those who helped me on my previous thread about my FIL upping sticks, handing his a big chunk off his money over to his daughter to ultimately live in her garden. Sorry but I don’t know how to link to my previous thread.

The update from what happened last night when we confronted FIL with our concerns:

“And it turns out that SIL is 14 weeks pregnant.

Apparently when she and her partner first suggested the Cabin idea 6 months or so ago and FIL declined and said he was happy to buy somewhere so he wouldn’t be under their feet, she told him not to be silly as the arrangement would work out really well for all involved as she and her partner were hoping to have more children in the future but that they wouldn’t be able to unless they had a bigger house anyway. SIL then told him how much it would mean to her and how wonderful it would be for FIL to be around to watch new grandchildren be born and see them grow up, liked he’d been around when DB (my husband) had had his children. FIL then agreed that it would be really nice to be around for early days and from then onwards, and agreed it was something he would happy be to look into.

Anyway, it looks like SIL took that as him being board and to cut a long story short, she told FIL she was pregnant about 3 months ago but told him not to tell anyone as it was such early days (her prerogative so that’s fine). Anyhow, it appears that is why FIL put his house up for sale and sold it quickly so the new house could be bought in time for the baby’s arrival. Bit strange really seeing as the baby generally stays with the parents in their room for a good 6 months or so, but that’s the story FIL gave. Stinks of manipulation to me but FIL is clearly happy with what’s happened and he does seem excited about the idea of being around for the new baby.

We asked him what would become of the Cabin if he passed away and he said that wasn’t his problem (with a smile) and said that SIL and her partner could do whatever they liked with it.

He hasn’t looked into anything legal as he didn’t think it was necessary. We did advise it (and gave examples from this thread as reasons why he should) but he told us we are worrying unnecessarily. So that’s his choice to make.

We asked him about the time scale of him staying here which was slightly awkward but he promised us again he would only be here for a few months. We said that was unlikely and explained why (all the issues raised in this thread) but he said things would be moving along quickly and if there are any delays he would move out and rent somewhere near us until the cabin is built. I asked why he wasn’t going to rent over there to make sure he liked the area, but he said he wanted to spend as much time as he could with us before he moved away.

So yes, he seems to be going into this with an awareness of all the ins and outs and is happy to go along with it all, so that’s that. It’s all his decision and if he doesn’t take legal advice then that too is his choice.

We have told him we won’t be taking the offered £25k but thanked him for his offer. As has been said on this thread, he’s probably going to need a back-up fund.

FIL left about an hour ago and me and DH are off to bed now with a film as we feel drained. I just wanted to update you as I’ve had so much help and advice from you all.”

I had a PM this morning from a poster who had wanted to respond to my post last night but realised the thread was full so answered privately instead.

Anyhow - I just wanted to start a second thread as I’m sure others have lots of further advice based on my FIL’s revelation, and also because I doubt this is the end of the matter.

Me and DH struggled to sleep last night but we see it’s a done deal now and due to the pregnancy we know FIL isn’t going to back out the deal so now it’s a case of trying to get him to protect himself as best as he can.

I can confirm from experience that LAs will put the fear of God into you if deliberate deprivation of assets has occurred. Threats of Court of Protection and legal proceedings and accusations of elder abuse. In our personal situation, we were way too laissez faire with MILs affairs, with a sum less than the amounts mentioned here. Not out of malice, but due to being frazzled by caring for her with fast deteriorating dementia - she's now been in a home for three years and it's tragic. We have paid back every penny they said we had "stolen", believing that at any time we could be dragged by the courts.

Now that we can apply for funding, which we're doing through LA or CHC, whichever ends up being appropriate, we have discovered that safeguarding and the police decided no further action was required before they sent the letter threatening us. Now I know they wanted us to keep paying, fair enough, but we had held our hands up and agreed this and have stuck to it religiously. It smacks of them keeping us on our toes to be frank. We also had no reply to a letter we sent laying out the hows and whys of the mess we created at all. We have also worked out their calculations were based on incorrect figures in the first place.

Needless to say we're a bit miffed BUT I do see the need for vulnerable elderly people to be protected. The current system is a very blunt tool though, and focuses entirely on the money at all costs.

DP has rumbled on about some form of re-dress - I think we should wait until funding is secured and then maybe send a mildish letter pointing out a few things that could have been handled differently. For reference DP is an only child, so he's the only one involved.

@MistressoftheDarkSide totally agree. We had similar and my H is also an only child. So we had never intentionally deprived anyone. We knew the IHT rules so assumed the same for a gift of money if the person is living. The problem is so many people need care now that giving away any large sum of cash is going to be seen as avoiding care costs in the future, and everyone who receives a gift assumes the 7 year rule is still applicable even if the person is still alive when they need the money. There are no rules on how far they can go back as far as I’m aware. The government were due to review it as part of their manifesto pledge but because of covid it’s been pushed back.

So OP if your fil is a healthy 65 now, but needs care in 10 years they can absolutely say he gave all his money away to sil to avoid costs in the future and that he purposely built a home on her property could be viewed as not wanting to buy a proper house, which could have been sold for fees. Sil may be crying to you for help.

@Bythemillpond

ThornAmongstRoses

Can your fil explain how the new job and being pregnant is going to work out.

That's what I wondered. And if a new mortgage hinges on it...

@Moomin12345

Is your father in law an adult capable of making his own decisions? If he is, that's cased close and your DH should get over it.

Yes of course

His sister and father have gone behind his back, his father still wants to move in for months but he should 'get over it'...

Posting again to suggest that your DH contacts FIL's solicitor dealing with house sale & puts him/her in picture (facts only) to make sure future accommodation needs/plans are fully discussed before FIL signs contracts. It can't do any harm, or at least no more than DH now withdrawing invitation to stay with you. It is a sad situation for FIL most esp if he was under pressure by SIL to keep a secret (& even if he made these financial decisions knowing the potential pitfalls) he is now likely going to suffer a fall-out with your DH which could be v difficult to repair. Please do at least alert his solicitor even if after that you & DH decide to wash your hands of the whole sorry mess.

All you can hope is he moves in with you ,with his money in the bank and he has a serious think about everything.

My only hope is no child of mine grows up like this

You'd want your child to stand back and say nothing while you were persuaded into giving your life savings away and moving into a large shed in the back garden of someone who dislikes you. Different strokes for different folk...

I don't understand why you/DH haven't spoken to SiL about this yet. Surely you would have phoned her the same day to find out if what FiL said was really the plan?

@TheSparkleJar

My only hope is no child of mine grows up like this

You'd want your child to stand back and say nothing while you were persuaded into giving your life savings away and moving into a large shed in the back garden of someone who dislikes you. Different strokes for different folk...

I think she meant OP’s sil!

@Starborn

I don't understand why you/DH haven't spoken to SiL about this yet. Surely you would have phoned her the same day to find out if what FiL said was really the plan?

OP's DH has. You can read just the OPs posts if you press "see all" under any of her posts.

It was on the other thread

Nanny0gg, Bythemillpond Can your fil explain how the new job and being pregnant is going to work out. That's what I wondered. And if a new mortgage hinges on it

They ask you when you apply if you know of any reason why your circumstances might change in the future. She would be committing fraud to say no. And remortgaging whilst on maternity leave is a complete pain. I should know I did it twice smh

Your FIL needs to read King Lear.

@Starborn

I don't understand why you/DH haven't spoken to SiL about this yet. Surely you would have phoned her the same day to find out if what FiL said was really the plan?

He has...

@MrsKoala

Apologies if this has been mentioned- I didn’t read the other thread. But if your fil needs care, regardless of when he gave the money to sil he/she will be expected to use that. It’s not the same as the 7 years IHT rule everyone thinks applies. We assumed that and didn’t get proper legal advice. I’ll tell you what happened to us in case it’s relevant: FIL sold his house and gave us a large amount towards our house so we could buy a bigger house and have another baby and the idea was FIL would be able to move in too if he needed more help later on. He also bought a flat near us so we could look after him. Later FIL got dementia and required care. The social services people had a meeting with us and when we said he had no savings or investments they said they knew how much he got from the sale of his house years earlier so what had happened to that? We said he’d given it to us and they said well he needs it back now and this was still seen as his money and even tho it was given a number of years before his dementia diagnosis that it was seen as deprivation of assets and we either paid him back what he gave us or paid his care. We ended up getting a second mortgage and paying £6200 per month for him or lose our house. He died of a heart attack after we’d paid £36k, but he could have very easily lived for much longer. If we had spent all the mortgage on his care and then he was still going strong we still would have owed the money he gave us as he wasn’t able to consent to us repaying the loan and it would be viewed as just a son paying his dads care fees out of the goodness of his heart.

If this kind of thing happens to your fil your sil needs to be prepared to sell her house. You just know she will be expecting you to help foot the bill.

I’m glad it worked out for you. This sounds incredibly stressful.

This is exactly what was discussed on the first thread and I said sil would have to sell the house if the money were required for care fees. She’s got pound signs and greed in her eyes with no understanding of what she’s manipulated her father into doing.

Shame on her.

@SionnachGlic

Posting again to suggest that your DH contacts FIL's solicitor dealing with house sale & puts him/her in picture (facts only) to make sure future accommodation needs/plans are fully discussed before FIL signs contracts. It can't do any harm, or at least no more than DH now withdrawing invitation to stay with you. It is a sad situation for FIL most esp if he was under pressure by SIL to keep a secret (& even if he made these financial decisions knowing the potential pitfalls) he is now likely going to suffer a fall-out with your DH which could be v difficult to repair. Please do at least alert his solicitor even if after that you & DH decide to wash your hands of the whole sorry mess.

This is probably the best way forward now. Perhaps the solicitor will be able to persuade him to rethink and maybe buy a house with annex and rent the house to his dd as I suggested upthread.

there's no promotion
SIL will buy a bigger house
they will need the money up front for a cabin
they will need money for planning
the planning will take too long
the cabin people will go bust/give a timeline of five years/blah blah
there will never be enough room in the SIL house for FIL to stay, even for a short while

What a mess . I can imagine my manipulating little sister getting up to shite like this, she's already calling my parents house her second home despite only going there once a year (and them paying for her travel expenses). Once she wanted my mum to take the place of her boyfriend on a trip to Vienna as they'd split up. My mum was all for it until my sister said she'd have to find somewhere else to stay and only meet up occasionally as my sister would need her space. Of course my mum would also have to pay for half of my sister's accommodation because "that's only fair." These cheeky fuckers don't care. My mum told her to sod off.

Yeah I did mean the SIL sorry 😂 OP and her DH are model children

I can confirm from experience that LAs will put the fear of God into you if deliberate deprivation of assets has occurred
surely this will make many people run away in fear and refuse to have anything to do with the finances of elderly relatives!

Sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

But if your FIL is set on this try and convince him to buy a house that already has an annex or cabin and he can be on the lease. SIL will have to be aware that they will need to sell the house if FIL will ever have to go into care or if the arrangement doesn't work out.

That way they get what they want and your FIL is protected.

There is a house here that has what they want (although I don't know what their price range is)

www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/84478399#/

Also he could have a look inside and see if a cabin like this will actually work for him.

Or this:
www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/84671566#/

What an awful situation your FIL has placed you in.

Your SIL and BIL will get their £90k and then continue to drain your FIL of his liquid assets for the cabin If this doesn't work out they will send him back to you. He's signing away his independence and you will be left to take up the slack.

I also think your FIL has behaved very badly in this. He's lied to you more than once. He's decided that you will bail him out regardless whilst he sits there and tells you that its not necessary to get a solicitor's advice on any of this.

Its not surprising your DH is feeling hurt.

He has made promises about only staying a few months, but can you trust anything he says?

I also think the idea of living with you, to spend as much time as possible with your DC before he moves away is extremely unfair on them. It also means he doesn't have to pay rent. Imagine saying to him, your three months are up, off you go, when the mythical house purchase/cabin construction is still an unknown quantity. FIL and SIL know this and are hoping it will be too difficult for you both to ask him to leave.
FIL is entitled to make his own decisions, but he doesn't have the right to construct a huge mess that will involve and impact on you and your family and expect you to agree to be involved in it.

Stitched up by his Dad, that's how it looks to me:(

I don't know the legal side of things very well but my parents gave us some money towards the purchase of our house. At the time the solicitors asked they if the wanted to register their interest on to the property. Would this be something your father in law could do?

I'm sure someone else on here will have a better understanding of this then I do so might be able to advise.

I feel really sorry for your father in law. The poor man just wants a relationship with his daughter and her family but is being manipulated. I hope things work out for his sake.

Maybe you guys shouldn't have decline the 25k? What if she manipulates that sum of money out of him as well and then he's got no support at all whereas if you took it and kept it for him he'd have something to fall back on (just a thought). I understand that it's not your responsibility to do this but inevitably when things do go wrong you won't have the heart to just leave him stranded. If the money was there you could give it to him to get back on his feet again?

@Miasicarisatia

You'd think so, wouldn't you. In fact it has made me very wary of ever getting involved if my DF and DSM need help in the future managing finances, even as an only child.

Trouble is, what might be a perfectly reasonable arrangement done privately between parent and child will be viewed very differently in accounting terms. Once a parent loses capacity, you can't prove that they were happy for that arrangement to be in place, so the default assumption is potentially cold hard financial abuse. As POA you are supposed to act in the best interests of your charge, and how you interpret that and how the law does are two different things. In the laws eyes it means holding all finances ready for the expectation of needing to pay for care - which broadsided us because of the speed of MILs decline. It was even suggested that her daily walk to get breakfast at a cafe and taxis used often because she couldn't use public transport and we don't drive, were really unnecessary extravagances. In our eyes it kept her socially active as the pub staff befriended her, and saved her distress on the home journey. She could walk there, but walking back was too taxing.

We were quizzed over expenses such as replicating her home environment as far as possible to make her feel comfortable, which meant she took over our bedroom and our ensuite containing the only bath in the house. They didn't care that she had to have an electric fire on constantly plus central heating even in the summer because she felt the cold so badly. Repeated trips by my DP to sell her home on the IOW were also questionable apparently.

They went nuts over the joint account DP and his MIL shared, which he went on way before she came to live with us, and the money juggling he used to do to keep up with ever increasing expenses. But turns out the rules are actually different than that.

And until you're in the thick of it, and you haven't researched well enough (stupidly) and you're frazzled to the max after 18 months of caring before realising you can't keep your loved one safely any more, and enduring the living grief of seeing your parent vanish before your eyes, you suddenly realise that you've been a complete idiot.

Anyway, sorry for the de-rail, and again, I do endorse vulnerable people having a body to protect them. It's just very sad when the money is really all they seem to care about.

It was even suggested that her daily walk to get breakfast at a cafe and taxis used often because she couldn't use public transport and we don't drive, were really unnecessary extravagances. In our eyes it kept her socially active as the pub staff befriended her, and saved her distress on the home journey. She could walk there, but walking back was too taxing.

Gosh your whole post is just so sad. I could've sworn even a few months ago my understanding was they can only look back a fixed amount.