Inheritance issues - part 2. AKA: Is FIL being manipulated and ripped off?

[ThornAmongstRoses]

This thread is for those who helped me on my previous thread about my FIL upping sticks, handing his a big chunk off his money over to his daughter to ultimately live in her garden. Sorry but I don’t know how to link to my previous thread.

The update from what happened last night when we confronted FIL with our concerns:

“And it turns out that SIL is 14 weeks pregnant.

Apparently when she and her partner first suggested the Cabin idea 6 months or so ago and FIL declined and said he was happy to buy somewhere so he wouldn’t be under their feet, she told him not to be silly as the arrangement would work out really well for all involved as she and her partner were hoping to have more children in the future but that they wouldn’t be able to unless they had a bigger house anyway. SIL then told him how much it would mean to her and how wonderful it would be for FIL to be around to watch new grandchildren be born and see them grow up, liked he’d been around when DB (my husband) had had his children. FIL then agreed that it would be really nice to be around for early days and from then onwards, and agreed it was something he would happy be to look into.

Anyway, it looks like SIL took that as him being board and to cut a long story short, she told FIL she was pregnant about 3 months ago but told him not to tell anyone as it was such early days (her prerogative so that’s fine). Anyhow, it appears that is why FIL put his house up for sale and sold it quickly so the new house could be bought in time for the baby’s arrival. Bit strange really seeing as the baby generally stays with the parents in their room for a good 6 months or so, but that’s the story FIL gave. Stinks of manipulation to me but FIL is clearly happy with what’s happened and he does seem excited about the idea of being around for the new baby.

We asked him what would become of the Cabin if he passed away and he said that wasn’t his problem (with a smile) and said that SIL and her partner could do whatever they liked with it.

He hasn’t looked into anything legal as he didn’t think it was necessary. We did advise it (and gave examples from this thread as reasons why he should) but he told us we are worrying unnecessarily. So that’s his choice to make.

We asked him about the time scale of him staying here which was slightly awkward but he promised us again he would only be here for a few months. We said that was unlikely and explained why (all the issues raised in this thread) but he said things would be moving along quickly and if there are any delays he would move out and rent somewhere near us until the cabin is built. I asked why he wasn’t going to rent over there to make sure he liked the area, but he said he wanted to spend as much time as he could with us before he moved away.

So yes, he seems to be going into this with an awareness of all the ins and outs and is happy to go along with it all, so that’s that. It’s all his decision and if he doesn’t take legal advice then that too is his choice.

We have told him we won’t be taking the offered £25k but thanked him for his offer. As has been said on this thread, he’s probably going to need a back-up fund.

FIL left about an hour ago and me and DH are off to bed now with a film as we feel drained. I just wanted to update you as I’ve had so much help and advice from you all.”

I had a PM this morning from a poster who had wanted to respond to my post last night but realised the thread was full so answered privately instead.

Anyhow - I just wanted to start a second thread as I’m sure others have lots of further advice based on my FIL’s revelation, and also because I doubt this is the end of the matter.

Me and DH struggled to sleep last night but we see it’s a done deal now and due to the pregnancy we know FIL isn’t going to back out the deal so now it’s a case of trying to get him to protect himself as best as he can.

@Lampzade

Op, tell your dh to remain calm when he tells FIL that he cannot stay. He should just simply say that he doesn’t want to get involved in anything that could be a disaster and therefore he thinks that it is better that FIL moves up to Skegness to rent a place to see if he likes the area.He can also encourage FIL to spend time at SIL’s home while he is there..... Your dh should refrain from being too emotional. We don’t want SIL to use this to her advantage by claiming that your dh is jealous etc

This is the right approach

The deception is undoubtedly what’s hurting my husband the most

I don't blame him
Again, FIL's perfectly entitled to keep his arrangements to himself, but not to make arrangements behind your back which involve a LOT of inconvenience to you

And IF SIL really is pregnant it's pretty obvious that she asked him not to tell you because their plan would then become blindingly clear, and she wanted it to be a done deal before you had a chance to talk him out of it

At least your DH now has the sense to say he can't stay, but it seems ironic now that posters were insisting you were the grabby one

I think the £120,000 for the cabin in the garden is a fantasy. Even if it is built it could end up being a negative to the properties value if the garden isn’t big enough.

I don’t know Skegness but if it is anything like a lot of seaside towns the gardens that come with the houses are small to average and not really the type of place that you could build an annexe without it taking up all or most part of the garden.

The figures just don’t add up.

How much is sil’s house worth, how much mortgage do they have. With the £90,000 + the extra mortgage with the new job (which I can’t see happening now you say she is pregnant) what sort of value house is she looking at.
And where is she looking?

I would think you would have to come inland to get the garden space to house a cabin which then means fils dream of living by the sea isn't going to happen.
Plus unless sil is already in an expensive house for the area I think what they need to spend + mortgage would come to more than an extra £90,000.

No wonder they don’t want him moving to Skegness till he has parted with his money,

I think deep down fil knows it is a ridiculous scheme and doesn’t want reality interfering with his utopian dream

In Skeggy most people put a static caravan in their gardens rather than build lodges so that’s bonkers anyway. You can pick up 2/3 bedroom statics that have to be removed from site for well under 5k or even a fancy one for 10k that would give more rooms than a lodge and likely be easier planning wise too.

None of this adds up.

if there are any delays he would move out and rent somewhere near us until the cabin is built
he says that but he believes that if he smiles nicely you wont have the heart to kick him out...

I mean a very fast right move shows me a five bed bungalow in chapel for offers around 175k. A four bed house ok a project but 120k. He could get so much more for his money and give her 90k. 2 and 3 bed flats for under 70k. 65k gets a sea front 2 bed bungalow.

He would be mad to move into a garden shed.

Her motives since you ask are pretty clear.

She wants a bigger house.

Note, NOT a bigger garden to house the cabin, no a bigger house.

This is the only way they can afford it.

FIL will be restricted to the cabin if it ever materialises. And by the way what access would he even have - through their house? How would that work.

If free childcare or babysitting comes with it, all the better.

She is probably charm itself right now and might even have convinced herself with talk about the new baby, lovely family days and Xmas by the fire.

It's all bullshit.

Your FIL is getting zero out of this ludicrous arrangement.

My 67 friend of family did this with his son... put up front the money to buy a bigger house and they were going to build a self contained unit in the garden for him.....except that never happened.... there were excuses and platitudes then no more only to build it...after the kitchen and bathroom redo, he was given a small room downstairs, and a schedule for when he would be "allowed" into the "main house" a lifetime of savings and he got a bedsit with a woman who would shout at him for using the milk...he died 6mth later. They couldn't have been happier

What I can't understand is, there are hundreds of cabins in Skegness. Why the hell does he need to give her £90k to have one isolated in her garden rather than in a community?!

arrangements behind your back which involve a LOT of inconvenience to you
for me this is the main red flag, that he made plans for you without your knowledge or consent, this tells me he see's himself as higher in 'rank' than you and feels it's fine for him to make decisions on your behalf....as if he is still his son's guardian!

@twinkletoedelephant

My 67 friend of family did this with his son... put up front the money to buy a bigger house and they were going to build a self contained unit in the garden for him.....except that never happened.... there were excuses and platitudes then no more only to build it...after the kitchen and bathroom redo, he was given a small room downstairs, and a schedule for when he would be "allowed" into the "main house" a lifetime of savings and he got a bedsit with a woman who would shout at him for using the milk...he died 6mth later. They couldn't have been happier

This is the latest of many, many such stories. It makes me wonder: is there no social sanction for people who behave so appallingly. Have they no shame? I have a bit of a theory that we are so anxious these days to mind our own business, to not judge, to see both sides of things that some of the things that are and should be seen as shameful, somehow people seem to get away with them. Feelings of guilt, shame, of being judged - these actually serve a purpose in society in limiting peoples worst instincts and behaviours. But these have become dirty words.

@Mrgrinch

What I can't understand is, there are hundreds of cabins in Skegness. Why the hell does he need to give her £90k to have one isolated in her garden rather than in a community?!

There are hundreds of houses, bungalows and flats in Skegness he could buy with the £160k left after he’s given her £90k. It’s total lunacy.

I bet she wants a fancy house not one of those 3/4 beds for under 170k. I mean how bad is their credit rating if they need 90k cash to buy something bigger than a 2? Was it bed they are currently in.

Thank God your husband has some backbone!
Similar thing in my family.
DGM has several properties in her name, my Aunt convinced her to transfer over to them except for flag she was currently living in. Told her to stay in their house and they’d take care of her... no input/communication with my DF who had been the only one visiting regularly taking her to doctors visits etc.
Three months later she returns, in worse condition, we take her to hospital etc etc and she ends up passing away. Realise that Aunt had convinced her to sigh most of her bank account over as joint and had cleaned them out.

It’s very hard to see someone you love taken advantage of... but nothing you can do Short of forcing him to visit a solicitor.
Should he return with his tail between his legs taking him in is another matter but for now it’s right that he made his bed so he should like in it

@Alsohuman yes but then there would be no need to give the £90k. It's a disgraceful scheme they e cooked up.

Is your father in law an adult capable of making his own decisions? If he is, that's cased close and your DH should get over it.

Perhaps by concentrating on the bil rather the sil, might be the answer as emotions are complex regarding his daughter. He wants to believe she is incapable of screwing him over.

Presumably bil will have 50/50 ownership of the the house, as presumably both will need to be on the mortgage. If they split up, bil will walk away with an instant £45k of the 90k. He could force the sale, including the cabin in the garden and thus sil will lose the 45k as well as making fil homeless. Fil already knows bil isn't the nicest of men.
Presenting it as concern for sil might make him question the sense of it all, a little but more.

Apologies if this has been mentioned- I didn’t read the other thread. But if your fil needs care, regardless of when he gave the money to sil he/she will be expected to use that. It’s not the same as the 7 years IHT rule everyone thinks applies. We assumed that and didn’t get proper legal advice. I’ll tell you what happened to us in case it’s relevant: FIL sold his house and gave us a large amount towards our house so we could buy a bigger house and have another baby and the idea was FIL would be able to move in too if he needed more help later on. He also bought a flat near us so we could look after him. Later FIL got dementia and required care. The social services people had a meeting with us and when we said he had no savings or investments they said they knew how much he got from the sale of his house years earlier so what had happened to that? We said he’d given it to us and they said well he needs it back now and this was still seen as his money and even tho it was given a number of years before his dementia diagnosis that it was seen as deprivation of assets and we either paid him back what he gave us or paid his care. We ended up getting a second mortgage and paying £6200 per month for him or lose our house. He died of a heart attack after we’d paid £36k, but he could have very easily lived for much longer. If we had spent all the mortgage on his care and then he was still going strong we still would have owed the money he gave us as he wasn’t able to consent to us repaying the loan and it would be viewed as just a son paying his dads care fees out of the goodness of his heart.

If this kind of thing happens to your fil your sil needs to be prepared to sell her house. You just know she will be expecting you to help foot the bill.

Yes, I agree that a garden cabin isn't desirable, but I don't think SiL will think this way. What I meant was that this way FiL's property is on her land. He dies, nothing goes to her brother. If he gave her 90k and bought a 120k bungalow, she doesn't have "control" of the whole inheritance.

@Moomin12345

Is your father in law an adult capable of making his own decisions? If he is, that's cased close and your DH should get over it.

He can "get over it" while also saying no to FiL moving in while pregnant SiL gets a promotion, finds and buys a house, and gets planning/building all done.

My only hope is no child of mine grows up like this :(

There are hundreds of houses, bungalows and flats in Skegness he could buy with the £160k left after he’s given her £90k. It’s total lunacy
It looks like lunacy but probably makes sense in terms of the beliefs of the parties involved.
Imo FIL thinks this will mean he has them over a barrel, whereas they believe this will mean they have FIL over a barrel.
Fil believes his daughter will only ever be unconditionally loyal to him, she likely feels no such compunction and can already see the number plates on the bus that he's going under

I wonder when SIL is going to declare that she’s had a miscarriage

We said he’d given it to us and they said well he needs it back now and this was still seen as his money and even tho it was given a number of years before his dementia diagnosis that it was seen as deprivation of assets and we either paid him back what he gave us or paid his care. We ended up getting a second mortgage and paying £6200 per month for him or lose our house
OMG that's terrifying!
I will be sure to never get involved with the finances of my parent!. Where does this end, what if he had given money to various different people, would they all be tracked down and made to pay it back?

Is your father in law an adult capable of making his own decisions? If he is, that's cased close and your DH should get over it

I don't think anyone's argued that he shouldn't be able to make his own decisions, Moomin - all most of us are saying that it's not OP/DH's responsibility to enable them

As mentioned, autonomy means accepting consequences, not expecting others to mop up the mess - especially when they've been deliberately kept out of the picture and the FIL won't even take legal advice