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Inheritance issues - part 2. AKA: Is FIL being manipulated and ripped off?

999 replies

ThornAmongstRoses · 24/03/2021 06:43

This thread is for those who helped me on my previous thread about my FIL upping sticks, handing his a big chunk off his money over to his daughter to ultimately live in her garden. Sorry but I don’t know how to link to my previous thread.

The update from what happened last night when we confronted FIL with our concerns:

“And it turns out that SIL is 14 weeks pregnant.

Apparently when she and her partner first suggested the Cabin idea 6 months or so ago and FIL declined and said he was happy to buy somewhere so he wouldn’t be under their feet, she told him not to be silly as the arrangement would work out really well for all involved as she and her partner were hoping to have more children in the future but that they wouldn’t be able to unless they had a bigger house anyway. SIL then told him how much it would mean to her and how wonderful it would be for FIL to be around to watch new grandchildren be born and see them grow up, liked he’d been around when DB (my husband) had had his children. FIL then agreed that it would be really nice to be around for early days and from then onwards, and agreed it was something he would happy be to look into.

Anyway, it looks like SIL took that as him being board and to cut a long story short, she told FIL she was pregnant about 3 months ago but told him not to tell anyone as it was such early days (her prerogative so that’s fine). Anyhow, it appears that is why FIL put his house up for sale and sold it quickly so the new house could be bought in time for the baby’s arrival. Bit strange really seeing as the baby generally stays with the parents in their room for a good 6 months or so, but that’s the story FIL gave. Stinks of manipulation to me but FIL is clearly happy with what’s happened and he does seem excited about the idea of being around for the new baby.

We asked him what would become of the Cabin if he passed away and he said that wasn’t his problem (with a smile) and said that SIL and her partner could do whatever they liked with it.

He hasn’t looked into anything legal as he didn’t think it was necessary. We did advise it (and gave examples from this thread as reasons why he should) but he told us we are worrying unnecessarily. So that’s his choice to make.

We asked him about the time scale of him staying here which was slightly awkward but he promised us again he would only be here for a few months. We said that was unlikely and explained why (all the issues raised in this thread) but he said things would be moving along quickly and if there are any delays he would move out and rent somewhere near us until the cabin is built. I asked why he wasn’t going to rent over there to make sure he liked the area, but he said he wanted to spend as much time as he could with us before he moved away.

So yes, he seems to be going into this with an awareness of all the ins and outs and is happy to go along with it all, so that’s that. It’s all his decision and if he doesn’t take legal advice then that too is his choice.

We have told him we won’t be taking the offered £25k but thanked him for his offer. As has been said on this thread, he’s probably going to need a back-up fund.

FIL left about an hour ago and me and DH are off to bed now with a film as we feel drained. I just wanted to update you as I’ve had so much help and advice from you all.”

I had a PM this morning from a poster who had wanted to respond to my post last night but realised the thread was full so answered privately instead.

Anyhow - I just wanted to start a second thread as I’m sure others have lots of further advice based on my FIL’s revelation, and also because I doubt this is the end of the matter.

Me and DH struggled to sleep last night but we see it’s a done deal now and due to the pregnancy we know FIL isn’t going to back out the deal so now it’s a case of trying to get him to protect himself as best as he can.

OP posts:
contrary13 · 24/03/2021 15:04

I can relate to how the OP and her family are/will be feeling, because 20 odd years ago, my grandmother and her partner moved from one end of the country to another, so that she could "help [my uncle] with childcare and housework". Said uncle was the baby of the family, horribly spoiled, in his 40s with 3 children - whose sole care he'd been responsible for, for some 10 years by this point.

My father, the oldest child, only found out that his mother and surrogate parent were moving, 2 weeks before it happened. And only then, because my grandmother's partner, fed up of the lies and so on, threw it into a Mothering Sunday conversation, in front of my parents, small daughter and myself, like a grenade. Like the OP's husband, my father was furious with the deceit, worried that my grandmother was reacting without thinking things through properly, and genuinely anxious that his youngest brother was going to use her for drudge work (which he did).

At the time, my grandmother would have been around the same age as the OP's FIL, perhaps a year or two older. She was in perfect health, as was her partner (who was 68, that I do know). They were both dead within 4 years of moving. And in that time, we saw them 3 times - and even then, my uncle and his children were always lurking.

When my grandmother died, my father was the executor of the estate (probably not the correct term for it) and he spent weeks up in the Midlands trying to sort everything out. My uncle's oldest son, then 16, and his girlfriend seemed to think that they were going to live (rent free, mind) in the bungalow which my grandmother and her partner had downsized into - and got nasty when my father and the middle brother told them "no". They'd made plans, blah, blah, blah... to which both my father and the middle brother told them "great, but unless you can afford the market price, tough!". The uncle whom my grandmother had thrown her entire life away for, so that she could do all the drudge work of raising his children (whose mother is, by the way, still alive and would have given her eye teeth to have helped care for them - she left their father, not them!) hired a skip and literally started to throw his dead mother and surrogate parent's belongings into it. It was shocking, and my father says he's glad I wasn't there, because I would have said/done something. I wish I had been there. I really do.

I was 22 when they moved. I had spent my whole life with them very firmly in it. We were close. I spent weekends with them, if I had a sick-day from school, it was my grandmother who cared for me, her partner and I shared a love of animals and walking, they took me on caravan holidays, to the seaside - and my grandmother even took me to theme parks, despite her fear of them in general. As a teenager, they vetted my boyfriends, attended my school events, treated me as a young adult rather than a child. They both adored my daughter, who was 3 when they left. She couldn't understand why we went from them dropping in to see us, or the other way around, to... nothing. There were phone calls, but in the pre-zoom days, they weren't the same as them seeing their great-grandchild growing up. And I will always have to carry the weight of knowing that the last time I ever spoke to my grandmother, she was sobbing - and she was a proud woman whose motto was "chin up!" - about how she was being treated by a man meant to be her son, and his brats of children. The last time that I actually saw her was 11 months before she died, at her partner's funeral/the day after it. And in hindsight, the way she clung to my father and me on those days? Makes me think we should have recognised the elder abuse going on. But we didn't. And my father was still furious about the lies she had told him to cover up her youngest son's plans to get the full market price of their several million pounds worth home (it didn't go for market value in the end). Me? I was just hurt that I'd lost my grandparents. In the end, she died of a broken heart. Her life-partner had died of cancer, she'd essentially lost her eldest son because of the way she played her hand, her youngest son treated her like a servant, and his children weren't much better.

I also think it scarred my daughter, despite how young she was. She won't have mention of them at all, 20 odd years later, because "it hurts too much". Perhaps she wondered if she'd done something to make them leave, in the way small children do. I don't know.

But, OP, if there's one thing I can say, one piece of advice, it'd be this: you cannot stop your FIL from behaving like an old fool - but you can counsel your husband and protect your children from the inevitable fallout. And there will be fallout, I'm afraid. Hopefully your FIL will go on for another 20 or 30 years - but we thought that about my grandparents. Life doesn't always go the way we expect it to. That's why sensible people don't make foolhardy decisions on the behest of grabby spoiled (wo)man-children!

Flowers
VaVaGloom · 24/03/2021 15:06

@ThornAmongstRoses what reason did your FIL give for moving in the first place?

Didn't you think it was odd he wasn't viewing anywhere locally and instead asked to move in with you?

Stovetopespresso · 24/03/2021 15:06

I would throw my toys out the pram rather than be "oh well it's his money" for a number of reasons, the main one being you love him and want the best for him!
can DH do this without alienating him though...
also just to say a cabin would not be eligible for (m)any adaptations for disabilities if its not 100% official as in on the land registry.

he needs to know s a stupid idea but the risk of a rift is real.

BRB2021 · 24/03/2021 15:08

That is a powerful post @contrary13

Gazelda · 24/03/2021 15:09

@ivykaty44

ThornAmongstRoses

my advise for what its worth

take a step back and concentrate on you and your family

try not to think about it to much, put it to one side and love each other

I doubt it will happen tbh

Wise words.

Don't fall out with FIL. You've made it clear you don't think this is a good plan. He's told you it's going to happen. Agree to disagree. Don't push him into a position he might be too proud to step back from.

ThornAmongstRoses · 24/03/2021 15:09

Surely when the house went on the market OPs DH said right Dad where are you moving to, what's the plan, do you want us to look on rightmove, do you want us to come along to the viewings? How could you not have had these conversations with a parent that you see multiple times a week. They say they were under the impression he was going to move locally, what reason did he give them for moving then?

General time scale....

Time scale.

On a Monday: Out of the blue he tells us that he’s putting his house up for sale.
On the Wednesday: He had the house valued.
On the Thursday: The house advert went on the website.
Across Sat/Sun: FIL had 5 viewings.
The next Monday: He tells us he’s sold the house.

(I can’t remember the exact days things happened but it was in that short a time frame)

So that’s how quick and surprising it was. Since the passing of MIL he had been saying the house was too big for him so we didn’t think he’d stay there forever, but the way it all happened, with such speed, was very unexpected and confusing to us.

Over the following week or so we spoke to him about where he was thinking of going and he kept saying he wasn’t sure, he just wanted something smaller. We told him he needed to start looking and he told us he’d seen houses in our local area on various estate agent websites but he just wasn’t sure exactly what he wanted. We urged him to get booking some visits and that if he wanted us to then we would go and look at the them with him. A few days after that he came over and told us he still hasn’t seen anything he’s really interested in and and said he was going to rent somewhere nearby in the meantime so he doesn’t rush into purchasing a house he isn’t completely sure about. DH then says that renting is wasted money and if he needs somewhere to stay for a few months in between houses then he can stay with us. FIL thanked us but was very non-committal. The next day he then came round, dropped the bombshell on us and then says he’d like to take us up on the offer of staying with us whilst everything gets sorted.

OP posts:
Stovetopespresso · 24/03/2021 15:10

@contrary13 ohhh...elder abuse, i hadn't named it in my head

ThornAmongstRoses · 24/03/2021 15:10

This thread makes me so sad to see how many families have been screwed over by other family members. I honestly can’t believe it happens Sad

OP posts:
MistressoftheDarkSide · 24/03/2021 15:11

@contrary13

Flowers
Mrgrinch · 24/03/2021 15:12

As much as I think it's mean to tell his father he can't stay, I totally understand why he's said it and why he's so angry and I would likely be the same. I do feel bad for him.

warmandtoasty2day · 24/03/2021 15:15

i'd be walking away from this drama tbh and stay out of it. fil doesn't want advice and will dig his heels in regardless that's why you are not getting the full picture. it might will go toes up but the main players won't take notice of what anyone else says, you might even be seen as being jealous.

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 24/03/2021 15:16

OP, please focus on you and your family. Maybe even stop posting about it for a while, unless there are fresh developments and you want advice or just to vent.
I'm not sure there's much new to say about the situation, and you owe nothing to us bunch of randoms. You're already drained. Look after yourself.

Stovetopespresso · 24/03/2021 15:18

@warmandtoasty2day but what about when he's cold and alone in some shabby mobile home? yes its his personal decision but he's being manipulated potentially. if you can see it you can say it surely?

GabriellaMontez · 24/03/2021 15:18

Your DH is right. FIL has deliberately kept this secret because he knows how hurtful it is that he's leaving. Having been an integral part of your family life. He's had little regard for your family.

He's got a fucking cheek expecting to be put up indefinitely.

CraftyYankee · 24/03/2021 15:19

Such a hard situation. The part that really doesn't make any sense is the cabin in the garden. Can you ask FIL for clarification on that part? Why isn't he getting his own property? If he really wants to be that close to his daughter, buy two properties next door to each other! At least then there would be resale value!

theleafandnotthetree · 24/03/2021 15:20

@ThornAmongstRoses

This thread makes me so sad to see how many families have been screwed over by other family members. I honestly can’t believe it happens Sad
And this is exactly how these things happen, because the majority of people cannot imagine how low someone can sink for money/property as to screw over their own parents. So they make excuses, faff around, think 'well maybe I'm being grabby' or are so busy respecting their parents life choices that before they know it, the terrible things have been done, the family relationships ruined and there's little they can do about it. Fuckers like the SIL RELY on the fact that other people are naive or just too decent themselves to imagine such a thing
ThornAmongstRoses · 24/03/2021 15:20

OP, please focus on you and your family. Maybe even stop posting about it for a while, unless there are fresh developments and you want advice or just to vent.

You’re probably right. I’m currently on my way home so I will have a chat with DH about how he’s currently feeling and then I think we both need to step back and gain some perspective because as the minute we are tying ourselves up in knots over it and at the end of the day, it’s FIL’s decision to make and he’s made it.

We can’t change anything so there’s no point us getting so stressed over it.

OP posts:
PerveenMistry · 24/03/2021 15:22

@CaraherEIL

I have had an idea maybe as the SIL and partner seem to be very money orientated your husband should say this to her. He supports dad‘s right to decide to give her some money to buy something bigger to accommodate the new baby.. However does she realise that if FIL invested the rest of his money in something separate that was bricks and mortar in 20 years time it will be worth a very substantial amount of money. The cabin by this stage will be worth almost nothing. If you can’t make her examine her own selfishness maybe appeal to her avarice. Say you know in 20 years you could maybe be inheriting say £100K from sale of dads house after he’s gone or absolutely nothing for you and your kids and a derelict cabin in your garden. It’s a horrendous version of if ‘you can’t beat them join them‘ but it might persuade the SIL to encourage FIL to buy his own place and would safeguard FIL’s future finances.

This is worth considering. The cabin is money down the drain.

Yorkshirehillbilly · 24/03/2021 15:25

It’s a terrible idea but on the plus side he can give sil £90k and still afford his own place in that area
I think the £90k is gone as he has committed himself.
That leaves £160k less fees
Refusing to let him move in is right decision given it will be months or years before he would have a cabin in a garden if that ever happens
Making him rent and deplete his savings may make him think again
He will probably be less likely to hand over the full £250k if he’s homeless and needs assets to rent anywhere
If sil wants her hands on the full amount she is going to have to let him move in with her while cabin is built
If your DH sits tight FIL may have second thoughts
Agree don’t make it easy by offering free housing
Maybe suggest he rent a park home by the sea for the summer
With current interest rates his money will be depleted the longer things take
The sil is also really stupid as she would have got £125k share of inheritance plus any house price growth and now she will get £90k, maybe caring duties for years, a brother with no inclination to help out, and a dilapidated outhouse that will be falling down and worthless by the time FIL dies and given its in Skegness any house price growth will be small. It doesn’t even make financial sense for her for him to live in a cabin in the garden if they are not building a brick annexe.
Good advice to stand back and not make it impossible for him to back out

warmandtoasty2day · 24/03/2021 15:25

[quote Stovetopespresso]@warmandtoasty2day but what about when he's cold and alone in some shabby mobile home? yes its his personal decision but he's being manipulated potentially. if you can see it you can say it surely?[/quote]
i get that but if he can't be made to see sense and the pitfalls have been outlined to him, he's still not listening, what else can you do ?
the story drip fed massively in the first thread and now it's just repeating and rehashing. fil doesn't want advice, he's blinkered and all he's hearing from his ds and op is yadder yadder, blah, blah. it sounds as if sil and her partner have brain washed him.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 24/03/2021 15:30

in a way, I'm glad we're technically "poor" - family scraps over money are awful.

My DGM died when I was 21, we lived with her in her large rented flat, furnished in lucky finds from skips in the 60s when solid old Victorian furniture was out of fashion. The way my Uncle and Aunt went about trying to get any scrap of money they thought they could out of my Mum who Nana had tasked with sorting her affairs leaving a letter of instruction, as she had no assets or savings, was despicable. Any proceeds from the sale of the furniture covered funeral expenses and a headstone which they grudgingly agreed to chip in for on paper but never did. They went to the lengths of implying my Mum had coerced Nana into signing the letter while not in her right mind - Nana was sharp as a tack to the end - her issues were all physical. And the hoohah over the "valuable stamp album" had to be seen to be believed. Needless to say, nothing in the stamp album was remotely valuable. They both lived locally but balked at anything more than fleeting visits and certainly didn't want to sully themselves with any sort of respite care. In fact, my Aunt once made a casserole that became currency in arguments over who did what and who was the most deserving.

As soon as our LL (Mum and Step dad had rented the flat under hers so effectively we lived over three floors - old Victorian building) found out Nana was dead, they took back Nana's flat to convert the three floors into three self-contained flats - Nana's flat had a fixed rent due to the long length of her tenancy, and they jumped at the chance of getting current market rents (early 90s) My bedroom and the top floor bathroom were large enough to be the third flat and I was homeless as Mum's flat was one bedroom. It pushed me into a premature move into a horribly unsuitable boyfriends place within six weeks of her death, when I was grieving and too young to really have a handle on what I was doing. My Aunt and Uncle, both homeowners with social climbing tendencies and spare rooms, categorically refused to let me stay with them.

Though I was working I wasn't quite doing well enough to rent somewhere myself yet, and Mum, also in grief and turmoil wasn't well placed to manage it all either, bless her.

When the conversion was completed, the LL very generously allowed me to rent the new conversion that used to be my entire bedroom from them. I subsequently discovered that the monthly rent I now paid was the same as my Nana had been paying for both floors of her flat per QUARTER.

All of that was my first object lesson that life isn't fair and money is king.

Funnily enough, since I was 21 my family has been NC with the rest. I'm 52 now, and I'm quite relieved.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 24/03/2021 15:38

And I echo PPs @ThornAmongstRoses - get some respite - and once again, I feel for you.

MumInBrussels · 24/03/2021 15:40

I think the shed in the garden bit is the bit that makes this insane, rather than just deeply unfair and mean. If he instead bought a house of his own for 130k, rather than spending it on essentially a shed in someone's garden, it wouldn't be nearly as bad, because he'd still have assets of his own and a place to live that doesn't depend on anyone else. I don't think you'll be able to put him off the idea entirely, but if there's any way at all to steer him towards at least getting his own house, I'd do that.

Not least because SIL selling her current house, finding a new one they like, moving in, getting planning permission, building the shed, him moving in, all of this would take a very long time even without possible pregnancy complications, a birth and a new baby in the mix. Or any further covid-related restrictions that might kick in. He is not looking at moving in to this place by the summer this year, to say the least, so he needs to find somewhere to live anyway. Might as well be somewhere long term and he could perhaps do the shed in the garden when he knows everything is going to work out with SIL. (Though you may wish to sell it as not adding to SILs stress levels around the birth of her baby etc...)

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 24/03/2021 15:47

I agree with pp that FiL is probably cunning and sly, and he is certainly manipulative. And so are SiL and her (dodgy) husband. But my guess is that SiL and especially her dodgy partner are a lot cleverer than FiL. The way things are going, SiL and partner will end up with the cash, and you and your DH will end up with his father living with you and financially dependent on you. And at only 65 years old that is likely to last for very many years before he is offered a place in a care home.

He hasn’t looked into anything legal as he didn’t think it was necessary.

Then don't take him in. FiL is being selfish and thoughtless. he is using his helplessness to exploit you and DH. He assumes that you and DH will bail him out if it all goes tits-up, which it will. So FiL doesn't have to care if it doesn't work out, because he wont suffer. You will.

he promised us again he would only be here for a few months

Don't ask him for promises, tell him what can happen.

Ideally your DH needs to tell him he is not going to move in with you at all because you and DH have looked into it and this scheme is so dodgy in your and DH's opinion that you are having nothing more to do with it, and you will not encourage it by letting him move in with you. If FiL still wants to carry on he can spend his 25K on rent. If he wants legal help to get out of this mess then you will help him get some, apart from that it's on him.

if there are any delays he would move out and rent somewhere near us until the cabin is built.

And you believe him? If take him in at all then at least set a strict deadline right from the start. Tell him he can move in for 3 months and then he will have to move out again, whether this cabin exists or not. Though he will certainly try to guilt your DH into letting him stay forever and probably succceed.

Manipulative people need boundaries. Your DH needs to find his backbone.

Bythemillpond · 24/03/2021 15:48

ThornAmongstRoses

Can your fil explain how the new job and being pregnant is going to work out.