Inheritance issues - part 2. AKA: Is FIL being manipulated and ripped off?

[ThornAmongstRoses]

This thread is for those who helped me on my previous thread about my FIL upping sticks, handing his a big chunk off his money over to his daughter to ultimately live in her garden. Sorry but I don’t know how to link to my previous thread.

The update from what happened last night when we confronted FIL with our concerns:

“And it turns out that SIL is 14 weeks pregnant.

Apparently when she and her partner first suggested the Cabin idea 6 months or so ago and FIL declined and said he was happy to buy somewhere so he wouldn’t be under their feet, she told him not to be silly as the arrangement would work out really well for all involved as she and her partner were hoping to have more children in the future but that they wouldn’t be able to unless they had a bigger house anyway. SIL then told him how much it would mean to her and how wonderful it would be for FIL to be around to watch new grandchildren be born and see them grow up, liked he’d been around when DB (my husband) had had his children. FIL then agreed that it would be really nice to be around for early days and from then onwards, and agreed it was something he would happy be to look into.

Anyway, it looks like SIL took that as him being board and to cut a long story short, she told FIL she was pregnant about 3 months ago but told him not to tell anyone as it was such early days (her prerogative so that’s fine). Anyhow, it appears that is why FIL put his house up for sale and sold it quickly so the new house could be bought in time for the baby’s arrival. Bit strange really seeing as the baby generally stays with the parents in their room for a good 6 months or so, but that’s the story FIL gave. Stinks of manipulation to me but FIL is clearly happy with what’s happened and he does seem excited about the idea of being around for the new baby.

We asked him what would become of the Cabin if he passed away and he said that wasn’t his problem (with a smile) and said that SIL and her partner could do whatever they liked with it.

He hasn’t looked into anything legal as he didn’t think it was necessary. We did advise it (and gave examples from this thread as reasons why he should) but he told us we are worrying unnecessarily. So that’s his choice to make.

We asked him about the time scale of him staying here which was slightly awkward but he promised us again he would only be here for a few months. We said that was unlikely and explained why (all the issues raised in this thread) but he said things would be moving along quickly and if there are any delays he would move out and rent somewhere near us until the cabin is built. I asked why he wasn’t going to rent over there to make sure he liked the area, but he said he wanted to spend as much time as he could with us before he moved away.

So yes, he seems to be going into this with an awareness of all the ins and outs and is happy to go along with it all, so that’s that. It’s all his decision and if he doesn’t take legal advice then that too is his choice.

We have told him we won’t be taking the offered £25k but thanked him for his offer. As has been said on this thread, he’s probably going to need a back-up fund.

FIL left about an hour ago and me and DH are off to bed now with a film as we feel drained. I just wanted to update you as I’ve had so much help and advice from you all.”

I had a PM this morning from a poster who had wanted to respond to my post last night but realised the thread was full so answered privately instead.

Anyhow - I just wanted to start a second thread as I’m sure others have lots of further advice based on my FIL’s revelation, and also because I doubt this is the end of the matter.

Me and DH struggled to sleep last night but we see it’s a done deal now and due to the pregnancy we know FIL isn’t going to back out the deal so now it’s a case of trying to get him to protect himself as best as he can.

Is SIL even pregnant? Kids who can steal from their own parents are capable of anything, & will lie about everything in order to get what they want. It's usually always the kids who've never had much to do with their parents that do this sort of thing. Your FIL's probably thrilled at the prospect of finally getting close to his daughter & is blinded by the thought of enjoying an idyllic retirement with her. Like you said OP, he's lonely, & no one would ever suspect that their own kids would rip them off. It's terrible that you know exactly what's happening & there's nothing that you can do. Unless you can get to speak to SIL, although she probably wont want to speak to you as she knows that you know what she's at. I just hope that it's not too late & your FIL comes to his senses.

@namechangemarch21

Honestly OP I think you should have taken the 25k, and I also think you should have straight out asked him if you have done anything to offend him that he is disinheriting you and leaving all his money to SIL. I'd also ask him if he ever spoke to his wife about what she wanted to do with her share of her inheritance, and how she would feel about disinheriting your DH.

That might sound nuclear, it might even sound grabby. But ultimately you've let him skirt around that, for fear of sounding like you're all about the money. I think you should force him to explain it to your face. Unequal inheritances, and upset about them, are so often more about why one child is favoured than the actual money as seems to be the case here. And ultimately your late MIL's wishes are also being ignored here. Its often easy for parents to favour the 'difficult' child as they know the other won't make a fuss, I think the time has come for you to make a fuss.

Its the norm for spouses to leave everything to each other and trust that will ultimately be divided among the children. I know of one case where the husband quite quickly, and brutally, remarried a much younger woman shortly after his wife's death and left the country. I have no doubt that if she anticipated that she would have left a good chunk of her assets directly to her children but she never saw it coming, and neither did they. I assume your MIL wouldn't have wanted this outcome.

At a minimum, as others have said, take the 25k and keep it safe for him. He almost certainly will need it. Agree a move-out date with him now: not 'a few months' - something like, ok well if it isn't all sorted by end of June/July/whatever you choose we'll. need the bedroom back. Ask at regular intervals what progress is made.

He's been a fool, and could do with speaking to a solicitor. I think one way to encourage that might be to say if things aren't done properly his daughter could lose her home if he ever needed care but in all honesty most 65 year olds aren't going to see that as a real risk.

I completely agree with this. In my DH’s family his sister is the difficult child, and he is the easygoing one. This has been reflected over the last few years in all kinds of matters, including Mil’s will, and it causes no end of hurt. All the advice above is really sensible, including pointing out that your MIl would have wanted her children to be treated equally. I have a friend who has been shafted by his sister in a similar way.

Is SIL even pregnant?

This occurred to me.

I can see a "miscarriage" coming on - probably through "stress" because people ask her if she has found a property/ got planning permission etc.

Sadly, I think that this is a very cunning and selfish man - and that he and his daughter are cut from the same cloth

Genuinely interested to know why you think someone willingly divesting themselves of their assets is selfish and cunning. Naively and foolishly over generous would be my take.

I have had an idea maybe as the SIL and partner seem to be very money orientated your husband should say this to her.
He supports dad‘s right to decide to give her some money to buy something bigger to accommodate the new baby.. However does she realise that if FIL invested the rest of his money in something separate that was bricks and mortar in 20 years time it will be worth a very substantial amount of money. The cabin by this stage will be worth almost nothing. If you can’t make her examine her own selfishness maybe appeal to her avarice. Say you know in 20 years you could maybe be inheriting say £100K from sale of dads house after he’s gone or absolutely nothing for you and your kids and a derelict cabin in your garden. It’s a horrendous version of if ‘you can’t beat them join them‘ but it might persuade the SIL to encourage FIL to buy his own place and would safeguard FIL’s future finances.

"At a minimum, as others have said, take the 25k and keep it safe for him."

Let him keep it safe for himself-for all the good it would do him!

She’s pregnant already? Maternity discrimination is rife in this country SIL isn’t getting that promotion.

What about mortgage payments when she’s on maternity leave?

I spy FIL is going to be manipulated into being the on hand childcare for a new born OR he’s going to be guilt tripped into keeping the mortgage going whilst SIL takes 9mths maternity leave.

Or perhaps the 90k means her income isn’t needed to buy the property and she’s planning on being a SAHM on her dads money.

Argh. What a Dhiteshow OP.

I agree with your DH not wanting your FIL to move in temporarily.

This will at least force him to consider moving to SIL sooner and realising hopefully quickly it’s a mistake. Her response to him not being allowed to stay should light her intentions up in vibrant neon.

If FIL doesn’t see it then you have no hope changing his mind.

For me, the selfish and cunning come from using the DS and family as an open ended backstop while making vastly different plans than previously discussed behind the DS's back with the SIL and BIL who apparently have a challenging relationship with him.

He wants his DS to be there for him for an unspecified amount of time, in order to re-build relations with his DD in the future which may be laudable, but this has never been explained clearly. He went from "house near to DS" to maintain already forged close relationship with them and DGC, to "house near to DD to forge new closer relationship far away in cabin in garden" in an oddly fast and short space of time, also contingent on a concealed pregnancy which ties him into a whole conditional can of worms.

The financial fallout, the family relationship issues, and reluctance to take sound legal advice to protect himself in the long term are all a big can of worms.

@Alsohuman

Sadly, I think that this is a very cunning and selfish man - and that he and his daughter are cut from the same cloth

Genuinely interested to know why you think someone willingly divesting themselves of their assets is selfish and cunning. Naively and foolishly over generous would be my take.

I get what you’re saying AlsoHuman. I do think ops SIL takes after her df. He’s happy to manipulate others to get his own ends even if it is to facilitate his financial demise. I imagine he and SIL have had some cosy chats about op and her dh being money grabbers.

This makes me wonder if op and her dh have a larger property and income.

@Alsohuman

Sadly, I think that this is a very cunning and selfish man - and that he and his daughter are cut from the same cloth

Genuinely interested to know why you think someone willingly divesting themselves of their assets is selfish and cunning. Naively and foolishly over generous would be my take.

He's connived, lied and obfuscated to manipulate his way into OP's home "just until . . . ".

He's deliberately kept information from his DS and DIL - he obviously was aware that (for whatever reason) they wouldn't be happy with what he had decided to do, so he covered all of his tracks and presented everything as a fait accompli - but not for his own good, oh, no! For the good of his grandchildren - he wants to live with them because he will hardly ever see them again once he movs because there will not be room for them to stay with him.

He thinks he is going to be part of one big happy family with his DD - he isn't. This might look like he isn't cunning, but please don't confuse "cunning" with sensible, or even clever - it is a different sort f intelligence altogether and is very sly.

@Nanny0gg

It's all a very long story haha!

But to be brief, no they didn't care at the time. They were so caught up in the excitement of the move, they just assumed we were being difficult. Very complicated as my best friend was the other sister and we fell out over it too. My DP was absolutely broken about it all, was barely functioning and he wanted to cut them off completely. My DF died a few years back and so I encouraged him to continue contact because they had such a good relationship before. He was very reluctant to do so. He was so upset at the deceit (he found out accidentally about the move when he spotted a post-it note on their computer). They blamed me for it all, sent me very nasty texts behind his back which they thought I wouldn't show him (I did). Things blew up spectacularly.

Just to put in context what they were acting like - MIL was diagnosed with breast cancer just before they were due to go. SIL and FIL, plus the GC still went ahead with the move, leaving her in the UK to undergo surgery and radiotherapy without them here. They were too excited about their new life to put anything on hold.

They came over to the UK a few times for other reasons and gradually they rebuilt a relationship with DP. He told them repeatedly that he wasn't upset at them choosing to emigrate, it was the way they did it and the fact they didn't show any concern about keeping in touch with the kids. Like none of us mattered. They cried, they apologised but then showed no sign of making changes. For example, they'd arrange to come to the UK to see his aunt (MIL's sister) but wouldn't tell him until they were here and then suddenly message and ask if he wanted to meet up on ONE night only of their trip here. What if DP had work commitments that night (he often does)? So they've said the right things, but their actions are still very sadly lacking.

I've made up with them as much as possible. I smile and talk nicely. They've never apologised to me but that's fine. It's hard enough for DP without me making it harder. This isn't about me even though I loved them very dearly before. They've met the DC a handful of times too - I think that's been hard for them to see as FIL and MIL realise how much they've missed out on (their other GC are much older). Things will never, ever be the same. Contact is sporadic at best. Video calls on birthdays. Occasional WhatsApp messages. I tend to stay clear if I can and leave it up to DP to talk to them. I'm not in the family WhatsApp group 🙄 I don't think they're planning on coming back to the UK for anything else now and apparently my DP isn't important enough to warrant a visit just for him. It's so fucking sad, it didn't have to be like this. I genuinely worry about my DP's mental health when the inevitable happens to them. I have no contact with my ex best friend. And the SIL who engineered it all still has me blocked on FB and makes snarky comments if she's there on video chat so she can piss right off as far as I'm concerned.

None of this makes any sense.

How is sil supposed to be starting a new job in the next few months when she will 4 or 5 months pregnant. She won’t get maternity pay because she will have been their under 2 years and there is every reason she is likely to be fired for any reason because again she has been there under 2 years

My thoughts are there might not be any new job. That is just to give your fil time to turn his house into cash then hand over 90k for a bigger house then it will be how they can’t pay the mortgage because sils new job have fired her so she has returned to her old job and so fil will have to cough up more money each month as they can’t pay the mortgage on her old salary

Agree @Bythemillpond

All the multiple uncertainties this plan hinges on at a time when things in the world are less certain than ever before.

As a PP said "Hope for the best but plan for the worst".

Lots of hoping and very little realistic contingency planning in evidence here.

How is your FIl justifying giving £90,000 plus the cabin in the future, to his dd and only £25,000 to your DH ?
Really horrible thing to do to siblings, as it will inevitably damage their relationship for ever. If SIl cared at all for her brother she wouldn’t be accepting this. I would not have wanted to have a huge sum like this from my parents while my brother got a much smaller amount, because I love my brother and it is so unfair.
I am afraid in your place I would be having strong words with FIl on favouring one child over another, and I would be far too angry to have him live in my house !

You can't buy love. If that's what your FiL is trying to do (building bridges) with his daughter by agreeing to live in a cabin in her garden then he's seriously misguided. He would be better off buying or even renting a property in the same locality so that he has his own place to return home to that is entirely separate should anything go wrong while he is there, for any reason.

One thing that jumped out at me, what is there to stop your SiL getting the cabin built and then simply selling up? Where would her dad and your FiL go then? He would have absolutely nothing and probably wouldn't be entitled to any of the proceeds of the sale as he wouldn't have anything in writing or any sort of contract. Would the new occupants have to take ownership with your FiL in residence?? This is so strange.

I think your DH is 100% right to have his final say in the matter and then close the book on the subject and not deal with any part of it going forward.

Been following but not had time to comment.

I'm in total agreement with your DH here. Leave his silly DF (your FIL) to his own devices and let him deal with being homeless etc.

How dare he want to stay with you for a few months whilst all this gets sorted out?

I love the way when you asked him what would become of the cabin if he died and he says not his problem and gives a smile. Sneaky sly old git...

Surely an apartment in a house conversion or on the front would be better and give FIL a chance of a social life and his own space.
The log cabin idea was presented to him as a fait accompli. Will he have to enter and exit through SIL’s house or will he have a separate entrance. What if he wants to go out of an evening or have a social life. Will he eat on his own or with the family. Will he have to contribute to their bills.
Bigger property plus cabin means bigger expenses.

[quote ivykaty44]@worried3012 this has been going on for 6 months without a word to ops dh

regardless of the pregnancy - that did n't need to be mentioned, but you'd think before a week or two was past to mention to your son who you see weekly that your thinking of moving to the coast with your daughter - 6 months is far to long in a close relationship to keep secrets[/quote]
I think it's odd that OP and her DH have only just found out his plans if they are close to him and see him 4 times a week.

Surely when the house went on the market OPs DH said right Dad where are you moving to, what's the plan, do you want us to look on rightmove, do you want us to come along to the viewings? How could you not have had these conversations with a parent that you see multiple times a week. They say they were under the impression he was going to move locally, what reason did he give them for moving then? Would you really accept a vague, I'll sell the house, move in with you and then look for something? OP sounds more clued up than going along with a woolly plan like that.

Thanks everyone. I’m mentally drained by it.

I don’t trust anything she says. All the promotion, the pregnancy, the cabin, everything, I think it all just smells of bullshit personally.

I have no idea what her motives are but obviously FIL can’t see any ulterior ones so he can do what he likes.

Like a few people have said, it’s a complete shit show.

@VaVaGloom

Indeed, this is one of the big issues leading to people suggesting intentional deceit on the FILs part, sadly.

@ThornAmongstRoses

It's such alot, and so personal, not surprised you feel drained.

I guess until more info is forthcoming all you can is focus on putting yourself and DH and DCs first.

I really feel for you.

ThornAmongstRoses

my advise for what its worth

take a step back and concentrate on you and your family

try not to think about it to much, put it to one side and love each other

I doubt it will happen tbh

Just had another thought OP.

If your FIL is essentially gifting all this money, depending on the size of his estate, there may be IHT implications if he doesn't survive for 7 years.

The money he gives away (presumably for the cabin to be built as well as the £90k for the larger house) will be added back into his estate and become subject to IHT if the total estate is over the limit. So there may be an Inheritance Tax bill if FIL were to die suddenly within the next 7 years. Doubt FIL will care as he doesn't seem bothered about anything that doesn't affect him any more, but it's just something to consider.

On an emotional level this must be beyond awful for DH. He has been treated very unfavourably in financial terms and excluded from being kept abreast of his father's plans. I would feel hurt, rejected, betrayed and unappreciated. Having FIL live with you all for an extended time period as further drama inevitably unfolds is surely a recipe for more upset and suffering for your family.

FIL needs to stand on his own feet and take responsibility for his actions.

DH can reiterate that he is choosing to deliberately making himself very financially vulnerable against the advice of DH and refusing all professional advice. There are lots of future scenarios where his situation could quickly become dire.

It is not reasonable for FIL to treat DH so incredibly unfavourably and disrespectfully and yet expect him to pick up the pieces when it all goes wrong and I would tell FIL this. How could it ever work when BIL actively dislikes FIL?

DH is right that FIL should not move in with you and needs to rent a house immediately and say that he would prefer it to be in Skegness to allow FIL to see what it's like there before fully committing to anything. Spending more time with your children before he leaves is not something you think would be sensible in the circumstances. Say you will visit him in Skegness instead. Don't allow him to emotionally blackmail you.

I think the most important thing is to realise that moving in with you isn't good for your family or for FIL.

I really feel for you and DH, this sounds incredibly hard. I think you need to pursue your own agenda and look after your own interests and well being.

This is sounds dodgy.

Why cant FIl buy a property with his DD and Son in law, that has an annexe. Then he can leave his share of the property to his DD and be able to leave some money to his own son.

Atleast that way he'd have some legal right to a property and have an asset.