Inheritance issues - part 2. AKA: Is FIL being manipulated and ripped off?

[ThornAmongstRoses]

This thread is for those who helped me on my previous thread about my FIL upping sticks, handing his a big chunk off his money over to his daughter to ultimately live in her garden. Sorry but I don’t know how to link to my previous thread.

The update from what happened last night when we confronted FIL with our concerns:

“And it turns out that SIL is 14 weeks pregnant.

Apparently when she and her partner first suggested the Cabin idea 6 months or so ago and FIL declined and said he was happy to buy somewhere so he wouldn’t be under their feet, she told him not to be silly as the arrangement would work out really well for all involved as she and her partner were hoping to have more children in the future but that they wouldn’t be able to unless they had a bigger house anyway. SIL then told him how much it would mean to her and how wonderful it would be for FIL to be around to watch new grandchildren be born and see them grow up, liked he’d been around when DB (my husband) had had his children. FIL then agreed that it would be really nice to be around for early days and from then onwards, and agreed it was something he would happy be to look into.

Anyway, it looks like SIL took that as him being board and to cut a long story short, she told FIL she was pregnant about 3 months ago but told him not to tell anyone as it was such early days (her prerogative so that’s fine). Anyhow, it appears that is why FIL put his house up for sale and sold it quickly so the new house could be bought in time for the baby’s arrival. Bit strange really seeing as the baby generally stays with the parents in their room for a good 6 months or so, but that’s the story FIL gave. Stinks of manipulation to me but FIL is clearly happy with what’s happened and he does seem excited about the idea of being around for the new baby.

We asked him what would become of the Cabin if he passed away and he said that wasn’t his problem (with a smile) and said that SIL and her partner could do whatever they liked with it.

He hasn’t looked into anything legal as he didn’t think it was necessary. We did advise it (and gave examples from this thread as reasons why he should) but he told us we are worrying unnecessarily. So that’s his choice to make.

We asked him about the time scale of him staying here which was slightly awkward but he promised us again he would only be here for a few months. We said that was unlikely and explained why (all the issues raised in this thread) but he said things would be moving along quickly and if there are any delays he would move out and rent somewhere near us until the cabin is built. I asked why he wasn’t going to rent over there to make sure he liked the area, but he said he wanted to spend as much time as he could with us before he moved away.

So yes, he seems to be going into this with an awareness of all the ins and outs and is happy to go along with it all, so that’s that. It’s all his decision and if he doesn’t take legal advice then that too is his choice.

We have told him we won’t be taking the offered £25k but thanked him for his offer. As has been said on this thread, he’s probably going to need a back-up fund.

FIL left about an hour ago and me and DH are off to bed now with a film as we feel drained. I just wanted to update you as I’ve had so much help and advice from you all.”

I had a PM this morning from a poster who had wanted to respond to my post last night but realised the thread was full so answered privately instead.

Anyhow - I just wanted to start a second thread as I’m sure others have lots of further advice based on my FIL’s revelation, and also because I doubt this is the end of the matter.

Me and DH struggled to sleep last night but we see it’s a done deal now and due to the pregnancy we know FIL isn’t going to back out the deal so now it’s a case of trying to get him to protect himself as best as he can.

I KNEW she was pregnant, I said that on the last thread! So sorry op, this must be really upsetting for yo and dh.

If your fil is hellbent on doing this, I would advise him to rethink the plan. He would be much better buying something like this www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/74422006#/

It has an annex with shower room and kitchenette. Not sure what that looks like or how it’s set up as the floor plan is pants. If it doesn’t work, he could then split it and create a downstairs flat - see blue line photo. This has a living room, kitchen and bedroom and the lobby with loo would be the shower room.

There is then enough room for your sil and husband to have a living room, kitchen with dining kitchen and access to conservatory and all the bedrooms they need on the 2 upper floors. They can even have separate gardens if required.

If your sil and her partner then rented out their house, they would get an income but pay increased tax. They could then pay your fil a reduced rent. Both keep their properties. Both keep their independence. And most importantly when the time comes, your fil will have a property for his care or to pass on to his children and grandchildren.

If you contact the planning office re this absurd cabin idea as advised by someone above, you’ll at least have an indication for him as to the obstacles and as he doesn’t want to hit his wallet, how much it’s going to cost him a lot to rent for the x number of years until this plan (if ever ) comes to fruition.

Floor plan pic

@MrsIsobelCrawley

We asked him what would become of the Cabin if he passed away and he said that wasn’t his problem (with a smile) and said that SIL and her partner could do whatever they liked with it.

Your FIL probably thinks you are more interested in your inheritance than in his welfare.

Well his daughter obviously is!

Relieved to hear your update, OP. It's important you and DH are on the same page.
Did you ever establish how far through his house sale is? If he can't move in with you, can he withdraw from the sale? If nothing else it gives him breathing space / thinking time and disaster may yet be averted.

"If SIL just wanted her dad nearby, she could just have him buy a house near to her. She clearly just wants the 90k."

Good point!

I think that your DH should focus on letting his dad know how upset he is about not being included in any of the discussions to date. He has been presented with a fait accompli, and not a good one.

Do the Daughter and partner have any equity in the property they need to sell ?
Does the partner work ? Even if daughter goes part-time after the baby is born, surely the pair of them could afford a mortgage of £500 for a 4 bed house, if they are given a deposit of 70k.
The fact that FIL is then going to put the money for the cabin in an account the daughter can access seems a bit dodgy, if that is what he meant ? Surely he should keep that money and then pay for cabin related stuff as needed.

I agree with your DH - I think your FIL is being so cheeky to expect to live with you whilst cutting you out of his plan with your SIL.

The care aspect is apparently not an issue at the moment, but it's just as well to be aware that if funding from a LA is ever needed they can go back as far as they like to determine eligibility, and can go after things sorted out years before. That's the only reason people have brought it up. Getting watertight legal documents properly drawn up now, before any expectation of care will be helpful in the long term, for this and other issues. It's the FIL's apparent disinterest in any of this aspect at all which is worrying.

And there is a huge expectation these days for people to think long term and keep money aside for care needs if they have it, never mind inheritances. At the very least it affords choice if it does become necessary.

Also, care needs can come and escalate very unexpectedly, as I mentioned on the last thread. It is a small, but important part of this whole picture.

If he wants to sell to give his daughter some money towards a bigger house then that's one thing.

But to then have his own accomadation tied to that just seems nonsensical to me.

Perhaps he/they think that he wouldn't have property & then no one will have to pay his care fees should there ever be any?

We have told him we won’t be taking the offered £25k but thanked him for his offer.

And you won’t let him stay at yours either?

Your OH doesn’t like the deceit? But he was happy to see your FIL as an income source that he had ring fenced for your kids education. You are as bad as your DB and SIL , nothing but £ signs. Your poor FIL. If only he knew, all his kids saw him as was a money pit.

@Cherryicecubes

It's a bit more complicated than that.......

@Cherryicecubes
It’s precisely because he isn’t a money pit that this scheme is so terrible.

And if, which I would dispute, his kids simply see him as a "money pit" It was with his tacit encouragement by telling them his plans for the money to be inherited being split 50/50 over a period of time.

It’s the worst bloody idea I’ve heard of. It’s not in fil best interests and I’d put money on sil deliberately getting pg and she’ll take the money and fil won’t be allowed his cabin after all. They’re conning him big time

I think your DH must feel so upset. The comment FIL made (with a smile) saying that his DIL and partner could do what they like with the cabin after he dies is unbelievably insensitive to his son. That cabin is currently representative of approx £120-130K. It is unbelievably infuriating that the cabin will only depreciate in value while a proper house in it’s own plot would only appreciate in value but even allowing for that foolishness he seems to have no comprehension of the fact that normally after death what is left is shared between the children. This is not anything to do with monetary gain it is the feeling of being less loved so less represented in the division of assets.Your FIL seems to have no comprehension of how hurtful he is being. Has his daughter as the baby of the family always been more indulged? Is your DH a lot older ?

Yeah I don't think FIL is as vulnerable as people seem to think. He is alert enough to plan this for 6 months and lie to his son's face often. And he's cunning enough to try use his relationship with his grandchildren to try sercure free accommodation for an undetermined length of time. Let him get on with it. He's not old and he's not stupid.

More importantly if your FIL sinks all his money into a depreciating asset when it comes to the cost of his care in maybe 20 years or so when the cabin will be on its last legs he will need financial/ practical help most likely from this same child who he is making feel so rejected.

There is an 8 year age gap between my DH and his sister.

She hasn’t been spoilt as the ‘baby’ of the family as far as I’m aware. She moved away from home when she 18 and went to Skegness with her boyfriend (the one she’s with now).

SIL’s relationships with her parents have also been quite strained. Maybe you’re right and this is FIL’s way of building bridges.

If he is determined to make stupid decisions there is nothing OP can do.

She can prevent him sobbing about his stupidity in her house indefinitely.

Once he was moved in it would be very distasteful to be moving him out.

Best he continues to sort himself out and tell them his plans afterwards.

6 months of chatting about being local and all the time upping and going.

His duplicity means he knew well what he was doing would cause upset.

OP, you clearly held this man in high regard.

His actions tell me that it is not reciprocal.

I understand you don't want things to implode OP - but it already has. All of this has opened up wounds which can't just be ignored.

We were in a sort of similar situation. Five years ago, my inlaws suddenly decided to move overseas to Italy. We lived nearby, saw them regularly and my DP was very close to them. We found out accidentally, they didn't talk to us until they'd found a house to buy and was essentially a done deal. Our DC are autistic and can't manage phone/video calling etc. We asked what their plan was to stay in touch and they just metaphorically shrugged because they were so caught up in the excitement of their new life. Bizarre behaviour from people I thought we were really close to. Then we found out the decision came from my SIL who wanted to get away from her relationship breakdown and start a new life with her DC, living with her parents in a house that had been bought for her. My inlaws basically chose to buy a huge house in Italy so they could see/live with SIL and their other GC instead of buying a smaller property over there and keeping a little place here so they could pop back/split their time. All engineered by SIL. If it wasn't for her pushing them, my DC would still have active grandparents in their lives. Yes, I am still bitter. It hurt my DC and my DP very badly.

My concern at the time was ripping away grandparents who were part of my DC's lives. We knew contact would be intermittent and hugely reduced once they left so we opted to start to phase them out right away. Make it easier for our children to adjust by reducing contact rather than allowing it to continue intensely, only for it to vanish abruptly. It took them about nine months to move and by the end they hadn't seen DC for months.

OP - if you allow your FIL to move in, you're asking your DC to make huge sacrifices for many, many months, and you're allowing him to become an even bigger part of their daily lives. And then he's suddenly going to disappear and they're barely going to see him. I know you're trying to do your best, but you know your DC - how will they cope with such an intense period of contact and then virtually nothing? I think allowing your FIL to stay with you could make things much harder for your DC, and you've already said they're going to find it tough not seeing him. Don't make it even harder for them.

I'm sorry this is all such a pile of shit with no magic solution. I do think however forcing your FIL to stand on his very capable feet will make him understand the reality of it all. He's shown zero regard for your DH or your DC in this move, so you need to take care of them and put your family first.

@FFSAllTheGoodOnesArereadyTaken

Shit that's awful. He is being used to facilitate SiLs wishes to grow her family and get a bigger house. I think I can guess who is going to be looking after the baby when she returns to work. What a giant mess. And I can see why he would feel he has to stick to the plan now she actually is pregnant. Is there anyone else, a friend or anything, you can get to speak to him about this, maybe he will take more notice from someone who isnt in the family? It's shit for your husband, he is suddenly switching so that all his time and resources and assets are given to his sister while your family are left with absolutely nothing. How often do you think uou will see him after he has moved?

But if she's pregnant already, how is she going for another job/more money and what will the mortgage people say to that?

@ExhaustedFlamingo

I understand you don't want things to implode OP - but it already has. All of this has opened up wounds which can't just be ignored.

We were in a sort of similar situation. Five years ago, my inlaws suddenly decided to move overseas to Italy. We lived nearby, saw them regularly and my DP was very close to them. We found out accidentally, they didn't talk to us until they'd found a house to buy and was essentially a done deal. Our DC are autistic and can't manage phone/video calling etc. We asked what their plan was to stay in touch and they just metaphorically shrugged because they were so caught up in the excitement of their new life. Bizarre behaviour from people I thought we were really close to. Then we found out the decision came from my SIL who wanted to get away from her relationship breakdown and start a new life with her DC, living with her parents in a house that had been bought for her. My inlaws basically chose to buy a huge house in Italy so they could see/live with SIL and their other GC instead of buying a smaller property over there and keeping a little place here so they could pop back/split their time. All engineered by SIL. If it wasn't for her pushing them, my DC would still have active grandparents in their lives. Yes, I am still bitter. It hurt my DC and my DP very badly.

My concern at the time was ripping away grandparents who were part of my DC's lives. We knew contact would be intermittent and hugely reduced once they left so we opted to start to phase them out right away. Make it easier for our children to adjust by reducing contact rather than allowing it to continue intensely, only for it to vanish abruptly. It took them about nine months to move and by the end they hadn't seen DC for months.

OP - if you allow your FIL to move in, you're asking your DC to make huge sacrifices for many, many months, and you're allowing him to become an even bigger part of their daily lives. And then he's suddenly going to disappear and they're barely going to see him. I know you're trying to do your best, but you know your DC - how will they cope with such an intense period of contact and then virtually nothing? I think allowing your FIL to stay with you could make things much harder for your DC, and you've already said they're going to find it tough not seeing him. Don't make it even harder for them.

I'm sorry this is all such a pile of shit with no magic solution. I do think however forcing your FIL to stand on his very capable feet will make him understand the reality of it all. He's shown zero regard for your DH or your DC in this move, so you need to take care of them and put your family first.

Was there any reaction from your in-laws when you started reducing contact?

What's it like now?

I think your DH is doing the right thing telling his DF he can’t stay. SIL and FIL can sort that out between themselves as they’ve managed to plan the whole moving thing without your input.

@BadNomad

Yeah I don't think FIL is as vulnerable as people seem to think. He is alert enough to plan this for 6 months and lie to his son's face often. And he's cunning enough to try use his relationship with his grandchildren to try sercure free accommodation for an undetermined length of time. Let him get on with it. He's not old and he's not stupid.

This ^

Sadly, I think that this is a very cunning and selfish man - and that he and his daughter are cut from the same cloth.