To be a true feminism, I need to address my own misandry?

[FerrisWheelTrain]

For example - are terms like LTB sexist?

@tangerinelollipop

If there is misandry (which I don't agree there is, but for arguments sake) it's not having a large scale negative impact upon men is it?

I absolutely believe we need to advocate for women.

What I think the OP is getting at (and in relation to the comment above) is that perhaps we need to remember that society and conventions are dynamic.

If over the years we take it to an extreme and say that we shouldn't worry about 'soft' generalisations about a group, because they can take the heat as they are not the ones currently disadvantaged, tables could turn and there could come a time when they could actually be (it's harder to see it with men because they are physically stronger, etc, but it could happen in subtler ways)

Balance is key in my mind, and we shouldn't lose perspective of how things can evolve, for the sake of our children. Although again, we should absolutely protect women and our DDs from everything that PPs have mentioned.

This is a really interesting post.

I am finding it hard to think of when the tables have been turned.

I'm in England and the groups that spring to mind as pushing for change in my lifetime have been gay men (and L+B as well but they haven't got so far), and people who experience racism.

Neither of those groups has gone on to turn the tables.

Historically I suppose there were fights for power between protestants and Catholics for the throne and they did switch around but that wasn't really quite the same thing.

Can you give some examples where an opposed group has 'turned the tables'?

As an aside, and noting that women are fighting for a better lot, not for dominion over men. The fact that you see 'turning the tables' as inherently undesirable is revealing/ interesting. So it's fine for men to be the dominant group and oppress women, but the reverse happening would be bad. Why? I mean it's not going to happen obviously. But the automatic reaction that the exact same thing the other way round is obviously undesirable is something I'd like to understand more about.

Give yourself a grounding in feminism - maybe try ‘Feminism is for Everybody’ by Bell Hooks, OP.
I’m sure your intentions are good, but you do seem confused.

@expectopelargonium I don’t intend to teach her that people are ‘nasty’ - or to stay away from them. They generally aren’t. She sorted out the problem on her own terms on Monday. and is very happy this week.

@blacksax well no make I associate with would react like that if I take my DS to ballet. What century are you in? He is currently using his sisters pink scooter, no one cares.

#male

[quote FerrisWheelTrain]@blacksax well no make I associate with would react like that if I take my DS to ballet. What century are you in? He is currently using his sisters pink scooter, no one cares.[/quote]
Except you.

Ferris
You keep commenting on how non-conforming your DS is. Many feminists would suggest he is not non-conforming as there should be nothing for him to conform to. He is just him and that’s it.
Much of the policing of gender stereotypes is carried out by males not females. If you are concerned your DS will be pushed into rigid male stereotypes I have 2 suggestions:-

1. Stop commenting on his behaviour like it’s different from a norm
2. Look at who, if anyone, is trying to impose the stereotypes on him as he grows up - I doubt it will be feminists.

@FerrisWheelTrain oh good you’re back. I was worried the ghoulies had got you in the night.

So, back to our paranormal chat.
Any more ghost sightings?
Any more details?
Is this the first time you’ve seen a ghost?

Really your kids are fine, let them be, you have more important concerns.
YOU HAVE A GHOST IN YOUR HOME!

@Pumperthepumper I care that @blacksax thinks that people won’t take their boys to ballet through fear of oppression. I think that’s an outdated view, and not commonplace anymore.

[quote FerrisWheelTrain]**@Pumperthepumper* I care that @blacksax* thinks that people won’t take their boys to ballet through fear of oppression. I think that’s an outdated view, and not commonplace anymore.[/quote]
Yeah but what about THE GHOST?

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude - even when I look on the internet, things are still classified as boys toys/girls toys. So subconsciously we are pushed a particular way. But as females - should we never question that we MIGHT be responsible without realising?

@SorryAuntLydia no - the ghost has gone! I know you love love studying my posts, and I’m immensely flattered - but if you do your advanced search again, you’ll see the full story on my other thread! Or - alternatively you could find something better to do?

[quote FerrisWheelTrain]@ChazsBrilliantAttitude - even when I look on the internet, things are still classified as boys toys/girls toys. So subconsciously we are pushed a particular way. But as females - should we never question that we MIGHT be responsible without realising?[/quote]
Yeah it’s almost as if a GHOST we’re putting ideas into our little heads. Spooky.

*were

[quote FerrisWheelTrain]@SorryAuntLydia no - the ghost has gone! I know you love love studying my posts, and I’m immensely flattered - but if you do your advanced search again, you’ll see the full story on my other thread! Or - alternatively you could find something better to do?[/quote]
Ooh the ghost is gone you say. I know your trick. What have you done with the real @FerrisWheelTrain my spooky friend?

Ferris
I didn’t say females shouldn’t question their own behaviour so I don’t know how you have jumped to that conclusion. What I said is that (most) feminists are not the one’s supporting stereotypes but rather challenging them. People who have thought about the toxic impact of stereotypes are going to be more aware of gendered toys etc.

@FOJN

me, you, everyone.

We might have very different ideas. True feminism suggests you think there an approved way of being a feminist.

Feminism has changed alot since the 70s.

[quote FerrisWheelTrain]@ChazsBrilliantAttitude - even when I look on the internet, things are still classified as boys toys/girls toys. So subconsciously we are pushed a particular way. But as females - should we never question that we MIGHT be responsible without realising?[/quote]
I think we have gone backwards with toys/clothes/colours. In the 70s 80s 90s my kids and their friends were much less judgemental than my GC are now. I despair when my GD won't even look at something properly before dismissing it as "that's for boys" based solely on the colour. Her brother is the same.

I can't understand how in the 50s my favourite toy was my Zoro sword and mask and nearly 70 years later my GD couldn't even consider such a thing as it is clearly for boys.

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude apologies - you mean it’s carried out more so by males. I’m fairly fortunate in the the males I am closest to would ALSO challenge stereotypes - and would also feel pretty insulted by the assumption that they wouldn’t.

ancientgran
My favourite was my Action Man helicopter. I wonder how many girls get one of those these days.

And I would never have picked a life partner if they showed any hint of aggression - or misogynistic views while I dated them.

Ferris
The males you are closest too are not the one’s who will be the biggest influence once your DS is in school. I have teenagers (boys) and their peers are the bigger influence now no matter how supportive we are at home.

I also thing there is something of a conflict in you saying women may be influenced by stereotypes then suggesting the males in your life would be insulted by the assumption they wouldn’t challenge stereotypes. Why would they not be subject to the same subtle influences as females?

You seem to have swirling thoughts on this and I am not sure this thread is really helping them coalesce.

@ancientgran brilliant, you sound like my mum. I was never given gender specific toys growing up - and she was always into DIY/fixing things. In fact she’s 75 - and telling me her plans to paint her beach hut/replace the roof. She put a bike together from scratch over lockdown. Just an amazing woman.

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude because I DO think it’s a paradox, I question things all the time. And I can change my view from one day to the next - often based on someone presenting me with a brilliant statement or argument against my belief. But that’s ok isn’t it? It’s why I love Mumsnet. So many GREAT people commenting here!

[quote FerrisWheelTrain]@ancientgran brilliant, you sound like my mum. I was never given gender specific toys growing up - and she was always into DIY/fixing things. In fact she’s 75 - and telling me her plans to paint her beach hut/replace the roof. She put a bike together from scratch over lockdown. Just an amazing woman.[/quote]
I'm nearly 70 and had to learn to do alot of things as my husband is disabled and I have been his carer for nearly 30 years.

Are my GC exceptions or has all the girls/boys toys stuff got as bad as I fear?