Nan won't have vaccine

[PurpleYo]

But expects everyone to still be happy to meet with her once restrictions lift.

What would you do?

She says if it's her time it's her time, she's not bothered. Which is her choice of course but I obviously wouldn't feel that way about potentially having killed my Nan if I were the one to pass anything on!

She is 80. I am in my late 20s with young children in primary so still going to be a bit of a risk factor for a while.

@PurpleYo

No way would I go near her if I were you.

Someone I know (a young woman - Anna - in her late 20s, ) went on a trip with SIX mates from the same age group, in mid February to the Lake District (she lives in Chester, so it's not just around the corner.) Minus 6 C windchill, and minus 2 degrees C temperature, and 3" of snow on the ground, nowhere open, no shops, cafes, or toilets or ANYthing.

I mean, no normal person would ever do this in mid February NORMALLY, but I guess they just wanted to prove a point; that they will do what the fuck they want and no-one will stop them, just like the foolish, arrogant young arseholes that they are...

Anyway. So a few days after they got back, Anna visited her 68 y.o. nana, and stayed for 3 or 4 hours in her house... Anna is not in nan's support bubble, but heyyyy Anna can do what she wants right?

A week later, nana was diagnosed with coronavirus, and 2 weeks later, she died from it.

The family is torn apart now, and Anna is being screamed at left, right, and centre. They blame her for nana's death. Her 2 aunts, her mother, her uncle, her cousins... Everyone. Nana has not been out and no-one had been near her since Christmas day, (except to drop off shopping at her door,) and then Anna rocked up to visit her mid February, and gave her coronavirus. And it was definitely her, because 3 of her mates had it at the same time as her nan. Cue, a family destroyed.

So yeah, I would not visit your nana for a split second. Don't want the same thing happening do you?! You may not have coronavirus, but you may be a carrier!

I also agree that it's despicable to lie about having the vaccine (if you haven't had it!) The poster claiming this sounds like the same kind of selfish, entitled little madam as 'Anna.' Anna is getting her just rewards now, hopefully that poster (and covid deniers like her) will get hers too (and soon...)

disclaimer...
Anna is not her real name...

One of my relatives was like this, so I used DS as a bribe to make her get it done. Basically said if she got the vaccine then provided we did too we’ll bring DS to see her (she hasn’t seen him since he was born as he’s a lockdown baby).

Wow, that is disgusting.

@littlepattilou but in your scenario, Anna's nana hadn't had the choice for a vaccine yet.

It's very different if she had the choice of a vaccine, chose not to have it, and then subsequently became ill. Anna might still get screamed at by her family -- but nana's choice is still her choice.

Odd how some people think it’s outrageous to call an old person selfish.

Having had to care for more than one 80-90 year old relative, believe me, old people can become extremely self-centred and demanding, even if they were never like that before.

Unless the Nan in question is literally never going out of the house, and literally never seeing anybody, then yes, she’s being selfish to refuse the vaccine. She might not mind being very ill and/or dying, but she could pass the virus to others, who most certainly would mind.

And before anybody says you can still transmit the virus once vaccinated, yes, but the chances of that are considerably lower.

[quote gwenneh]@littlepattilou but in your scenario, Anna's nana hadn't had the choice for a vaccine yet.

It's very different if she had the choice of a vaccine, chose not to have it, and then subsequently became ill. Anna might still get screamed at by her family -- but nana's choice is still her choice.[/quote]
I guess so, but I am just illustrating (or trying to! ) that it's a bad idea to visit someone who is not vaccinated - (especially someone over 60 or vulnerable,) as there is a risk of passing coronavirus to them. You could be a carrier and not know it (like Anna.)

No WAY would I visit anyone over 60, or anyone vulnerable if they refused to have the vaccine. No way would I want the death on my conscience. And what happened with 'Anna' has proven how easily one could be blamed...

@GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER

Odd how some people think it’s outrageous to call an old person selfish.

Having had to care for more than one 80-90 year old relative, believe me, old people can become extremely self-centred and demanding, even if they were never like that before.

Unless the Nan in question is literally never going out of the house, and literally never seeing anybody, then yes, she’s being selfish to refuse the vaccine. She might not mind being very ill and/or dying, but she could pass the virus to others, who most certainly would mind.

And before anybody says you can still transmit the virus once vaccinated, yes, but the chances of that are considerably lower.

I agree. ^

Being an older person does not make you immune to criticism. And you are correct that they can be self centred and demanding, and think they know it all.

I know/know of around 10 people who are covid deniers and who refuse to wear a mask, and they are all over 60 (except one who is 52.)

I guess so, but I am just illustrating (or trying to! ) that it's a bad idea to visit someone who is not vaccinated - (especially someone over 60 or vulnerable,) as there is a risk of passing coronavirus to them. You could be a carrier and not know it (like Anna.)

Of course -- if you're also unvaccinated, like your fictional Anna. In that case I agree with you, 100%. I wouldn't send my young DC to school and risk being a conduit for the virus in that case.

Vaccines, and the ability to get it, change the scenario for me. If I can be vaccinated and have chosen to be vaccinated, then I would visit my un-vaccinated-by-choice nana.

^
What she said.
It's the pebble in a pond effect.
Unless Nan stays in, her choices have the potential to effect more than her.
The fewer people that take up the vaccination, the greater the risk of new variants developing, so the longer this goes on.
I'm a transplant recipient on immunosuppressants.
I've had the vaccine but, there is a very strong probability that it will have given me very little, if any, protection.
People like me depend very, very much on other people getting vaccinated.

I would point out to her exactly how horrible it would be to die from Covid. You don't slip peacefully away - it's awful.

Everybody has the right to make their own choices - but all choices have consequences. The consequence of your Nan choosing not to have the vaccine may be that you don't feel you can visit her with your young children in case she catches Covid from you and gets sick. She's 80 and should understand that.

@InSpaceNooneCanHearYouScream

I can't believe some of these responses. Branding an 80 yr old 'utterly selfish'. Accusing HER of putting a 20 year yr old at risk? 20 yr olds aren't AT risk! Fuck's sake.

Don't expect any sort of reasonable discussion on MN where Covid or the vaccine is involved. People on here are hysterical.

Is she continuing to look after her health in other ways eg taking her pills, washing, going to appointments?

I'd wonder if she's feeling emotionally quite low due to lockdown and this is just a symptom of it? When I was at my most depressed, I often thought that if I was diagnosed with cancer then I would simply not accept treatment for it, as it wasn't much worth living anyway.

I disagree that people are “hysterical” for pointing out 80 years can be selfish, that being 20 doesn’t mean you aren’t at risk from COVID, that people have a right to not have a vaccine and that people have a right to avoid those that don’t. Should we all pander to 80 year olds just because they’ve had more birthdays than a lot of us?

@GrumpyHoonMain

One of my relatives was like this, so I used DS as a bribe to make her get it done. Basically said if she got the vaccine then provided we did too we’ll bring DS to see her (she hasn’t seen him since he was born as he’s a lockdown baby).

Wow, that's really manipulative!!

OP, if your Nan has capacity she is perfectly entitled to decline a vaccine, or any other health procedure/test/medicine.

Just remember the vaccine doesn't stop people passing it on to one another anyway, so even if she had the vaccine, you could still pass it to her and she could still be ill [remember they say it "should" ensure vaccinated people have milder symptoms, but they have NO guarantee of that]

Please don't panic.

If she's selfish enough to refuse the vaccine then you're probably better off with her out your life

@GrumpyHoonMain

One of my relatives was like this, so I used DS as a bribe to make her get it done. Basically said if she got the vaccine then provided we did too we’ll bring DS to see her (she hasn’t seen him since he was born as he’s a lockdown baby).

Brilliant nothing like a spot of blackmail. And then boasting about it. When did allowing people to make their own decisions about their health stop? When’s the cut off age for losing bodily autonomy?

@Nokiding

If she's selfish enough to refuse the vaccine then you're probably better off with her out your life

Yeah, just cut your own nan off for choosing what she wants to do with her own body. That's normal.

Just remember the vaccine doesn't stop people passing it on to one another anyway

Yes, to quite an extent it does. It's not a complete guarantee, but it significantly reduces the risk.

If she's selfish enough to refuse the vaccine then you're probably better off with her out your life

That's really extreme - and I'm ardently pro-vaccine and not very tolerant of anti-vaccinators. But to keep a relative out of your life due to a single decision that you don't like - especially as in this case she is the one most at risk, not you or your kids - is going a bit far. Take some Covid precautions; open a window when you meet her indoors; no hugs - but to keep her out of your life???

I also agree that it's despicable to lie about having the vaccine (if you haven't had it!) The poster claiming this sounds like the same kind of selfish, entitled little madam as 'Anna.' Anna is getting her just rewards now, hopefully that poster (and covid deniers like her) will get hers too (and soon...)

So lying about having a vaccine to avoid abuse and emotional blackmail is somehow worse than you actually hoping someone loses a relative soon

@InSpaceNooneCanHearYouScream

I can't believe some of these responses. Branding an 80 yr old 'utterly selfish'. Accusing HER of putting a 20 year yr old at risk? 20 yr olds aren't AT risk! Fuck's sake.

This. Or manipulating them to coerce them. Disgusting. I had the vaccine, both doses.

Funny how no one gets up in arms about any other vaccine.

@Tinydinosaur

What would make you feel worse, your Nan dying of coronavirus and there being a small chance that you gave it to her while being asymptomatic, or your Nan dying alone having not seen you in so long because you wouldn't visit her becuase of her own personal medical decisions?

It's her decision, it's her body, once the case rates reduce and restrictions ease I wouldn't refuse to see my Nana because of her medical choices.

Agree with this .

@ThereOnceWasANote

I would point out to her exactly how horrible it would be to die from Covid. You don't slip peacefully away - it's awful.

Yes she may not realise what a horrible death it might be, not slipping away in her sleep more like gasping for every breath I would try to explain this to her.