I despair

[Anotherlovelybitofsquirrel]

Just when you think it can't get worse...yes it's the DM, if you don't like the DM don't click. I am at a loss to how this creature thought it was a, funny and b, fine to share. When normal people are sickened and horrified by this beautiful young womans life being taken. Hope they get sacked and never find another job. Bastard.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9369547/Cop-Sarah-Everard-crime-scene-sent-vile-parody-Highway-Code-seven-officers.html

@Pumperthepumper

I don't think anyone is saying the misogyny should be ignored, at all. Just that the proportion of officers who do actively kick back against and challenge it - like those who reported this disgusting text - should equally not be ignored. They're trying to fight the very misogyny you are all enraged about.

[quote LucieStar]@Pumperthepumper

I don't think anyone is saying the misogyny should be ignored, at all. Just that the proportion of officers who do actively kick back against and challenge it - like those who reported this disgusting text - should equally not be ignored. They're trying to fight the very misogyny you are all enraged about. [/quote]
And yet, it keeps happening. So time to try something new. It will never change if people waste time pretending it’s not an absolutely massive issue within the very people who are supposed to protect us. Did you read that article above?

@Pumperthepumper

I've just read it. I think it's shocking that officers suspected of an offence are interviewed by their own force. That shouldn't be allowed to happen, it's a huge conflict of interest to be interviewing your mate for a serious offence. I agree a lot more needs to be done, I don't honestly know what the answers are. I'm just heartened to see that the subject of this thread was called out by his colleagues, which clearly they didn't have to - so well done them.

[quote LucieStar]@Pumperthepumper

I've just read it. I think it's shocking that officers suspected of an offence are interviewed by their own force. That shouldn't be allowed to happen, it's a huge conflict of interest to be interviewing your mate for a serious offence. I agree a lot more needs to be done, I don't honestly know what the answers are. I'm just heartened to see that the subject of this thread was called out by his colleagues, which clearly they didn't have to - so well done them. [/quote]
You’re exactly right, it’s ridiculous they’re allowed to be interviewed by people with an interest in getting them off.

But more interesting than that - that article is from 2019 and here we are, two years later and still talking about this rife misogyny. So clearly, we need to try harder.

It's frustrating when threads like this are dominated by NAPALT. Most of us already know that and are not suggesting otherwise. There are other more important things to discuss which effectively get shouted down when NAPALT posters take over. We actually need to talk about the police who are like that and the women like Sarah, Nicole and Bibaa - and others - who didn't get the safe, fair, respectful and decent treatment they deserved. That is where the focus of all decent people needs to be.

@MrsMackesy

It's frustrating when threads like this are dominated by NAPALT. Most of us already know that and are not suggesting otherwise. There are other more important things to discuss which effectively get shouted down when NAPALT posters take over. We actually need to talk about the police who are like that and the women like Sarah, Nicole and Bibaa - and others - who didn't get the safe, fair, respectful and decent treatment they deserved. That is where the focus of all decent people needs to be.

Totally. It’s the inability to understand the difference between individuals and classes/institutions.

Saying the Catholic Church as an institution has a problem with child sex abuse == all catholic priests abuse children.

Saying men as a class are a danger to women == all men are a danger to women.

Etc. Etc.

It just de-rails a sensible conversation.

Totally. It’s the inability to understand the difference between individuals and classes/institutions.

If you're referring to my contributions, you'd be entirely wrong about this. I do in fact have a very good understanding of the difference (I'm actually a very intelligent and highly educated person, believe it or not ).

Perhaps what happened was I misinterpreted a pp's comment quite early on in the thread, as implying that other officers had encouraged the behaviour of this one individual (this was the comment): ^

"^I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell you it's one bad apple but he judged that 7 of his colleagues would share his amusement. What does that tell us about misogyny in the police force?"

Now - you can see how this could be interpreted one of two ways. He judged that those 7 individuals were as bad as he was, therefore the blame is at an individual level, or, he judged that all police officers would find this funny (with no evidence from the individuals as such), simply due to the broader institutional issues that you all refer to within the police force. I felt that the former was being implied; perhaps, on reflection, I misinterpreted that and pp was meaning the latter. If so, I can hold up my hands to that, fine.

But - what seemed striking also on the thread was the lack of acknowledgment of the fact that the very officers who received the messages were the ones who called it out. They also belong to this misogynistic institution, right? But they acted on it - not weeks or months later, but the very next day. I felt, in light of this, that the comment about how this highlights the misogyny of the police or force was lacking balance somewhat - because whilst it may do so, it also highlights something else - that there were (thank goodness) some damn good officers who did the right thing. So they are part of the fight against the misogyny. Which is a step in the right direction, right? Admittedly a small step, granted... and much more reform is needed, granted. So my contributions (initially) were that aimed at wanting to bring that small piece of evidence of positive action against police misogyny to light. Because that's important to us all, isn't it. Whatever steps are being taken - they matter. And if the issues really are so ingrained and longstanding, small steps such as these by good officers should surely be highlighted and applauded.

So, actually, quite apart from the most recent poster's suggestion that my contributions aimed to derail a "productive" discussion - I personally feel that by highlighting the only small positive action that exists in this scenario against misogyny - I in fact brought some balance and added to it.

Apologies for the essay

It’s really not all about you @LucieStar 😂 in fact you didn’t actually factor at all in my comment.

My comment was reflective of not just this thread but in general.

BLM - some imbecile always pipes up ‘all lives matter’

Any mention of male violence- immediately followed by ‘not all men are like that’

It’s unbelievably tedious and just de-rails perfectly sensible discussion.

@Sexnotgender

It’s really not all about you *@LucieStar* 😂 in fact you didn’t actually factor at all in my comment.

My comment was reflective of not just this thread but in general.

BLM - some imbecile always pipes up ‘all lives matter’

Any mention of male violence- immediately followed by ‘not all men are like that’

It’s unbelievably tedious and just de-rails perfectly sensible discussion.

Ahh ok! Well at least I've explained anyway

I get what you're saying - it can be derailing. But it can also be productive if it's highlighting what the other "good apples" are actually doing to combat it.

Absolutely. It’s useful to know that actually people are standing up and being counted.

It doesn’t take away that:

Males as a class are a danger to females
The Catholic Church has a sex abuse issue
The police as an institution has a misogyny problem
Etc.

If we can’t name the problem and discuss it in a sensible fashion we have no hope of fixing it.

Actually most churches but the catholics get most of the heat!

@Sexnotgender

Absolutely. It’s useful to know that actually people are standing up and being counted.

It doesn’t take away that:

Males as a class are a danger to females
The Catholic Church has a sex abuse issue
The police as an institution has a misogyny problem
Etc.

If we can’t name the problem and discuss it in a sensible fashion we have no hope of fixing it.

Oh yes, I know.

But having named it, we can then look for the positive actions and take heart in them, and encourage them in others.

I wonder how many of the 7 recipients were horrified - I'd like to think all of them. But who knows. Maybe just one or two reported it; maybe they unanimously thought this isn't acceptable. The point is can you only imagine if they'd continued the messages and joined in, then it came out months down the line that a group of them had done this. I honestly do take heart in the actions of those who reported this idiot.

A few people have mentioned the police recruitment and screening process too - I wonder if he was on his "best behaviour" to fool them and get through it? Who knows. Let's hope he isn't able to serve as an officer again though.

*Any mention of male violence- immediately followed by ‘not all men are like that’
*
I get this.

I think if it was: "not all men are like that, and here's what some men are doing to help..." - that would be more productive.

I can’t understand, and I think I’ll probably never understand, why people’s first reaction is Not My Nigel though. I think it achieves the opposite effect.

@Pumperthepumper

I can’t understand, and I think I’ll probably never understand, why people’s first reaction is Not My Nigel though. I think it achieves the opposite effect.

It’s almost an automatic reaction, it’s bizarre.

@Pumperthepumper

I can’t understand, and I think I’ll probably never understand, why people’s first reaction is Not My Nigel though. I think it achieves the opposite effect.

My hunch is because for some people it's often difficult to see a statement that appears on the surface to generalise a whole group of people (albeit, I fully understand that this isn't the intention when you understand the cause and the principles underlying it). But the phrasing I think can make people feel defensive (at least initially, until they understand).

However, in this case, my aim wasn't a blanket "not all policemen" agenda for the sake of it. It was first and foremost to highlight that in the example given in the OP, we have some reason (however small) to feel hopeful that some of them are absolutely doing the right thing. You can see that was my focus from my very first comment on this thread, where I refer to that hope. It was ignored though in favour of "this shows the misogyny of the police" being repeated. But I did strongly feel that the balance was important, because it benefits us all by giving a small glimmer of hope perhaps that there are some good individuals on the inside of this misogynistic institution fighting it for us all.

Surely it's better to have a small glimmer of hope in an otherwise overwhelmingly scary and depressing situation? I felt so anyway.

Just to add - that's why I carefully read the article linked in the OP before I even commented. If it had said this was entirely covered up by police and was discovered by an outside source etc, there's no way I'd have come on this thread to say "not all police are like that". Not a chance. Because (1) I wouldn't have a leg to stand on and 2) it's not relevant to the specific scenario referred to in the OP. But because this scenario did in fact involve positive action "from the inside", as it were, I felt it an important point to make, for balance. Not sure if that makes sense.

Surely it's better to have a small glimmer of hope in an otherwise overwhelmingly scary and depressing situation? I felt so anyway.

But you also said your partner doesn’t see any of this attitude in his force. You were very clear to distance him from this, when actually, regardless, he does have a responsibility to change it.

@Pumperthepumper

Surely it's better to have a small glimmer of hope in an otherwise overwhelmingly scary and depressing situation? I felt so anyway.

But you also said your partner doesn’t see any of this attitude in his force. You were very clear to distance him from this, when actually, regardless, he does have a responsibility to change it.

I did feel quite defensive yesterday in relation to my own partner, yes, you're right. Those personal feelings became a little mixed up in the original point I wanted to make, which was the positive actions of the officers in the scenario.

Of course he has a responsibility - he takes that seriously every single day. But (from what I know of his colleagues who are our mutual friends), his force genuinely doesn't seem to be anywhere near as bad as the Met based on its reputation. I doubt he'd feel comfortable working for them if it's as bad as people say! Of course if he came across any issues like those described in the OP he'd be absolutely appalled and it would be reported instantly.

Incidentally we live nowhere near London. I'm not sure if different forces around the country have better / worse reputations?

@LucieStar

*Any mention of male violence- immediately followed by ‘not all men are like that’ * I get this.

I think if it was: "not all men are like that, and here's what some men are doing to help..." - that would be more productive.

But that is NOT the premise of the OP's post - thread even - and you are still making this an agenda to suit you, LucieStar.

You're trying to shut down the conversation that the INSTITUTIONS themselves are misogynistic and that the people working in them are attracted to the sort of role that engenders this behaviour. It doesn't matter that a few 'good eggs' are doing a bit to help - the issue is that for those who are misogynistic, sociopathic or worse - are in these roles and they are not few.

Please, if you want to keep talking about what a bang up job your partner is doing then start another thread because you've really taken over this one and despite posters trying to 'be kind', you're blinkered and still trying to talk-over the issue.

It's not about your partner, it's about the institution and you're either able to have a view on that aspect, or you're not.

If I was as stressed and upset as you say you are, I wouldn't be coming back and back to torture myself further.

Of course he has a responsibility - he takes that seriously every single day. But (from what I know of his colleagues who are our mutual friends), his force genuinely doesn't seem to be anywhere near as bad as the Met based on its reputation. I doubt he'd feel comfortable working for them if it's as bad as people say! Of course if he came across any issues like those described in the OP he'd be absolutely appalled and it would be reported instantly.

It’s still completely irrelevant. The Police has, and has always had, a culture that allows misogyny to thrive. And people are fed up of it. There is a huge mistrust of the police, because while people like this particular creep are shocking, they’re not particularly surprising any more. We know that there is something about the Police that attracts, and validates, this kind of misogyny.

@LyingWitchInTheWardrobe

I'm sorry that you appear to have massively misunderstood my meaning.

@Pumperthepumper

Of course he has a responsibility - he takes that seriously every single day. But (from what I know of his colleagues who are our mutual friends), his force genuinely doesn't seem to be anywhere near as bad as the Met based on its reputation. I doubt he'd feel comfortable working for them if it's as bad as people say! Of course if he came across any issues like those described in the OP he'd be absolutely appalled and it would be reported instantly.

It’s still completely irrelevant. The Police has, and has always had, a culture that allows misogyny to thrive. And people are fed up of it. There is a huge mistrust of the police, because while people like this particular creep are shocking, they’re not particularly surprising any more. We know that there is something about the Police that attracts, and validates, this kind of misogyny.

Yes - I accept that.

I don't personally know what the answer is to the institutionalised part though. I genuinely don't. What solutions do you think there could be?

I do think there can be a certain type of person (probably often male) who is attracted to the police for the wrong reasons (power for example) and therefore there will always be a certain proportion of this type of behaviour in the force. Not to say most police are like that. We certainly don’t have any where close to the same extent of issues with the police as America for example.