Census I don't belong.

[Devlesko]

I'm equally sadened and angered.
Every other ethnicity covered as far as I know, all other travelling groups rightly so. Roma who are here from Eastern Europe.

We have been told by campaigners to stand up and be counted so that we can access healthcare and schools.
Now we are white other, not a mention.

It's not just semantics we are all different ethnicities with separate cultures, the only similarity is we travel, or try to. Our DNA is distinctive to our ethnicity Irish and Romany are completely different.

What is a gypsy? What ethnicity? It doesn't exist. But more recently those who are interested and thank you, know that Romany originate from India, around 1,500 years ago and have been in the UK for 500 years.
During which time we have been enslaved, tortured, murdered, transported, hated by society and persecuted by Kings and Governments.

I'm sick of the back door laws to erode if not annilate our culture. It just isn't fair. Society tars us all with the same brush, but you can ask any health visitor who has ever visited how family orientated we are and spotlessley clean.

Gypsy is a slur for American Romany and Europeans. But it's that bad in the UK where we face racism daily that it's hardly worth fighting the use of the word "gypsy"

I'm writing this because I know whilst theres a few on here with Romany links, Mumsnet is a new audience and apart from me very few would venture. That is nothing personal, just a different culture.

So when you see us being refused service in a pub, restaurant, wedding reception venue, don't spit at us, laugh, call us names, we are human.

@AnaisNun
I agree with you about the fascism. It almost feels like the only choice is between gender/identity politics or the tories who are going further and further right wing whilst the left and so called middle ground parties who seem to be eating themselves in a purity spiral.
In my more pessimistic days I wonder quite how hard the push back against all the woke bs will be and how many innocent groups will be destroyed under the guise of "putting things right "

@fridgepants

Yes, but then whilst in the Carribean they mixed with other ethnicities. Obvisouly not everyone, and also created new cultures. Their genetic make up can be very different from a descendant of black African.

It is also a choice. People may not consider themselves to be black african or black Carribean anymore. They may consider themselves black British. It's a choice, as well as being slightly different genetic mixes etc.

@Tullyjune

My grandmother always told me she had “Romani blood” from her mothers side. I’ve tried to research the family tree but I lose them around the 1890s and they were settled then.

She specifically said “Romany” and not “Roma” - does this mean that her heritage would have been traced back to England some 500 years ago rather than Europe more recently?

I’m fascinated and wish I knew more.

I have an AMA gypsiologist thread, can't link. I'm an anorak.

Totally agree with you op.
I'm another one that feels I don't fit in the predefined ethnic groups.
My nationality is British. I was born here. I grew up here.
But ethnically I'm not.
I always struggle with this question too.

@Onedropbeat
Who ever taught you that had no idea what they were talking about, and seem to have just picked whatever nationality had a similar sound in their title.

"I don't what the hell I am supposed to put. If I put the one I agree with, it will be wrong. Not sure how they have broken it down."

My friend has done hers without answering it. Ethnicity questions are illegal in some countries so I understand people's reticence, but think the data is important.

I agree op the Romany/gypsy/Egyptian have been in Britain over 500 years. Since the last was their lifestyle has changed more than any other group.
In my view the government has to monitor this ethnic group and provide help and assistance to prevent it dying out.
I am not a Romany myself but have met many and tried to read about them. Damian la Bas the stopping places was a radio 4 book of the week not so long ago.
As an experiment, Google Romany hygiene laws...there is next to nothing on this complex part of gypsy life

@littlemissmagic

Totally agree with you op. I'm another one that feels I don't fit in the predefined ethnic groups. My nationality is British. I was born here. I grew up here. But ethnically I'm not. I always struggle with this question too.

But ethnicity...is a social construct.

I don't mind that mine isn't on the list because I don't think I have one.

[quote AWhisperWillDoIfThatsAllYouCan]@Onedropbeat
Who ever taught you that had no idea what they were talking about, and seem to have just picked whatever nationality had a similar sound in their title.[/quote]
The word gypsy is believed to come from Egyptian though as people used to think Gypsies/Romanies/Roma/Rom came from Egypt.

"French: gitan/tsigane, English gypsy, gipsy /ˈdʒɪpsiː/, Irish: giofóg, Spanish/Catalan/Italian gitano, Basque: ijito, Turkish: çingene, all from Greek: Αἰγύπτιος, romanized: Aigýptios "Egyptian" (corrupted form: Γύφτος, Gýftos), and Hungarian: fáraónépe from Greek: φαραώ, romanized: pharaó "pharaoh" – referring to their allegedly Egyptian provenance.[70] Usage of "gypsy" and similarly derived words differs between groups as some Roma groups use this word as a self-identifier, especially in the United Kingdom,[76][77][78] while others, especially in the United States, consider this word a racial slur.[61]"

(Wikipedia)

But weren't those black people from the Caribbean descended from slaves brought there from Africa?

Even so, that doesn't necessarily make them Africans anymore, just people descended from Africans. They have different cultures. Same way many people who identify as white British/English are descended from different other places. They don't have to keep ticking German or Polish, for example, because their ancestors were.

So, to the pp who said the distinction shouldn't matter, it does.

@Devlesko I’ll have to look for it! I would love to know more.

Every now and again I do a deep dive to try and discover more about my heritage.

"As an experiment, Google Romany hygiene laws...there is next to nothing on this complex part of gypsy life"

In Eldra Jarman's book on the Welsh Gypsies some of the hygiene laws were said to derive from misogyny if I remember correctly e.g. men and women's clothes shouldn't be washed together because women were dirty because they had periods. I don't have it to hand so I'm going on memory.

I'm an atheist non-white Jew and no combination of boxes works for me either. The ethnicity/race/religion idea is very much a Christian/islamic one where religious belief is separate from biology and history.

So by your definition we should just suck it up and not have our needs met

What specific needs are you talking about? I'm not clear what exactly you mean.

@Ferrylights

I'm directly descended from Romany blood on my paternal side, my family were and still are travelling showman - My gran was one of nine born on the road in a Bow Top wagon. Can I call myself Romany ? I'm mightily proud of my ancestry but think I am too far removed to claim this on the census form.

Not all travelling showmen were Romany, but are recognised as travellers as a group, a bit like new age travellers, not a distinct ethnic group. But some showmen were Romany. Your ancestry sounds good, but I would say you'd need to come from both Romany parents and of course considering the culture your own. Some Romany live in houses, and people say they are "settled" but you don't stop being a traveller, it's in your blood. You still follow the same culture, and your house rather than you trailor or van is spotless

DP is "Any other White background". She's from one specific western European country. She has no more in common culturally or ethnically with a white person from Poland, South Africa, Canada, etc than I do (white British).

I understand from your post that Roma and Romany have different needs to each other, but the needs of a white American and a white Kosovan in the UK are probably very different and they're categorised together.

I'm not sure what the answer is. Turning it into just a text box would be more 'equal' but the stats reduced would probably be difficult to handle.

@WellIsntThisA

But weren't those black people from the Caribbean descended from slaves brought there from Africa?

Even so, that doesn't necessarily make them Africans anymore, just people descended from Africans. They have different cultures. Same way many people who identify as white British/English are descended from different other places. They don't have to keep ticking German or Polish, for example, because their ancestors were.

So, to the pp who said the distinction shouldn't matter, it does.

And all us Asians just get lumped together. How culturally different is the largest continent in the world? How many languages that have zeros similarities and completely different alphabets? How many different religions?

To me, I identify with my culture and not much at all with the ethnicity boxes. I think asking a culture question is far more relevant and it shouldn’t matter if it has extensive options. You should be able to tick all that apply. It’s more relevant to seeing what a picture of our country is actually like.

I agree with you - we're saying the same thing. @MiddleClassProblem

I think a text box would be better as ethnicity is more about culture than colour or even, nationality - obviously there's a lot of lumping going on from all angles.

I had a text box that asked my actual and specific African ethnicity, which I was pleased to see as normally it would just be Black/African. Was there no text box for others to write in?

Yup. I love learning about different cultures. It’s so interesting how they shape us. But my race doesn’t shape me other than how others see me. One side of my family are Anglo Indian, there are a lot more cultural similarities between myself and my Nigerian friends than with my Japanese friend or my Vietnamese friend, yet we are all seen as one race.

Still unclear what you think you are being denied by having to specify your group in ‘other’ like many groups of people need to do. If your numbers are very tiny why would you have a separate category? If as you say all the Roma have left the that category should be removed - doesn’t mean yours would be added if you are small in number.

@LemonadePockets

There’s a whole other group that haven’t been included. The Showmen of Great Britain. They are families who travel with funfairs, they are not Romany, gypsy, Irish travellers.. they have a governing body called the Showman’s Guild, but no box on the census.

There are literally thousands of groups that don't have their own box and have to type in it. What do people think the criteria should be to have an ethnicity included?

Definitely agree with you there @MiddleClassProblem

Can I please ask the distinction be made between having ancestral DNA to a group, and having ancestral DNA to a group that you belong to now.
Theres a big difference.

@LemonadePockets

There’s a whole other group that haven’t been included. The Showmen of Great Britain. They are families who travel with funfairs, they are not Romany, gypsy, Irish travellers.. they have a governing body called the Showman’s Guild, but no box on the census.

If they are white and British then presumably white British covers them?