Census I don't belong.

[Devlesko]

I'm equally sadened and angered.
Every other ethnicity covered as far as I know, all other travelling groups rightly so. Roma who are here from Eastern Europe.

We have been told by campaigners to stand up and be counted so that we can access healthcare and schools.
Now we are white other, not a mention.

It's not just semantics we are all different ethnicities with separate cultures, the only similarity is we travel, or try to. Our DNA is distinctive to our ethnicity Irish and Romany are completely different.

What is a gypsy? What ethnicity? It doesn't exist. But more recently those who are interested and thank you, know that Romany originate from India, around 1,500 years ago and have been in the UK for 500 years.
During which time we have been enslaved, tortured, murdered, transported, hated by society and persecuted by Kings and Governments.

I'm sick of the back door laws to erode if not annilate our culture. It just isn't fair. Society tars us all with the same brush, but you can ask any health visitor who has ever visited how family orientated we are and spotlessley clean.

Gypsy is a slur for American Romany and Europeans. But it's that bad in the UK where we face racism daily that it's hardly worth fighting the use of the word "gypsy"

I'm writing this because I know whilst theres a few on here with Romany links, Mumsnet is a new audience and apart from me very few would venture. That is nothing personal, just a different culture.

So when you see us being refused service in a pub, restaurant, wedding reception venue, don't spit at us, laugh, call us names, we are human.

But didn't you say that even when settled, travelling or cleaning is in your blood? So why can't characteristics of DNA be carried down too and for those which have them to identify with them? Yes I know in real life it's not the same as being around people of your DNA but it doesn't mean a person can't feel a sense of belonging with their heritage.
For example my daughter has a percentage of Masaii in her DNA and upon research I discovered they have a huge calcium intake which before finding this out I had been shocked at her level of requests for milk and cheese throughout the day compared to other children. Seeing the information about her ancestry made it make sense.
I'm really sorry about the way your group is treated and I'm sure the census didn't help with reminding you of the horrible things this government are doing. I always just ignore those kinds of things - it's none of their business in my opinion and even with knowing the ethnicity of the nation, they're still going to let most of us down in one way or another. It's just the way it has always been here. Xx

@Devlesko

Can I please ask the distinction be made between having ancestral DNA to a group, and having ancestral DNA to a group that you belong to now. Theres a big difference.

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you mean by this? I don't think most people know much about their ancestral DNA beyond a couple of generations unless they are from the aristocracy or something.

*LemonadePockets

There’s a whole other group that haven’t been included. The Showmen of Great Britain. They are families who travel with funfairs, they are not Romany, gypsy, Irish travellers.. they have a governing body called the Showman’s Guild, but no box on the census.

If they are white and British then presumably white British covers them?*

Yes I would have thought so as well but
having read this thread I'm not sure I know what ethnicity means anymore

The census gives me a box to tick which is Welsh. However when I complete other forms the only option is British.

@Devlesko

Can I please ask the distinction be made between having ancestral DNA to a group, and having ancestral DNA to a group that you belong to now. Theres a big difference.

That's your opinion. My ethnicity is incredibly varied. It is not based on the "ancestral DNA to a group I belong to now". People view ethnicity as different things. They're not wrong simply because they think differently to you.

@Devlesko

Can I please ask the distinction be made between having ancestral DNA to a group, and having ancestral DNA to a group that you belong to now. Theres a big difference.

The census is about collecting data on circa 70 million people. If your group is very tiny numbers then it isn’t discrimination if you don’t have a special category of your own. Either tick the nearest that reflects you or complete other and give details. I really can’t see the problem. You haven’t explained the problem well. What do you think will be lost if you don’t have your own category that would not be lost if you did?

I just clicked other and wrote Hispanic, hopefully that's what you did in the end too (not Hispanic obvs) cus the more people that write in with different answers then they're more likely to be included next time instead of being Other

Apparently this is the definition of an Ethnic group:
An ethnic group or ethnicity is a grouping of people who identify with each other on the basis of shared attributes that distinguish them from other groups such as a common set of traditions, ancestry, language, history, society, culture, nation, religion, or social treatment within their residing area.

If this is the case I think all those putting White British really shouldn't be lumped together. As a working class daughter of a miner from Yorkshire I certainly don't share traditions, history or social treatment with every other White British person in the UK, the same way whilst the Queen is White British she doesnt share those things with me.

@Welikebeingcosy

But didn't you say that even when settled, travelling or cleaning is in your blood? So why can't characteristics of DNA be carried down too and for those which have them to identify with them? Yes I know in real life it's not the same as being around people of your DNA but it doesn't mean a person can't feel a sense of belonging with their heritage. For example my daughter has a percentage of Masaii in her DNA and upon research I discovered they have a huge calcium intake which before finding this out I had been shocked at her level of requests for milk and cheese throughout the day compared to other children. Seeing the information about her ancestry made it make sense. I'm really sorry about the way your group is treated and I'm sure the census didn't help with reminding you of the horrible things this government are doing. I always just ignore those kinds of things - it's none of their business in my opinion and even with knowing the ethnicity of the nation, they're still going to let most of us down in one way or another. It's just the way it has always been here. Xx

I agree entirely, but our race determines how we are treated in the UK. Heritage is very important especially in terms of DNA and health. However, when you are a marginalised group facing extinction (I'm not exagerating) it's important for a distinction to be made. It's not just about belonging it's about being counted. I dred to think that our culture won't exist very soon, we'll be reserved for history. It's so sad, unfair, and unjust. As I said before this is just another nail in the coffin. Do we not need to know how many of us will become homeless, through government legislation? Because it's only travelling people it applies to.

Recording ethnicity to plan services because, in this instance, it's closely linked with a way of life isn't without its problems not everyone with Romany heritage is nomadic.

There was a Romany community near where I grew up but they were settled, there was a small camp that had been in the same place for as long as I can remember and other members of the extended family lived locally in houses so none of the families I knew travelled. My closest friend was Romany we went to the same school and were registered at the same doctors surgery. Her mum gave birth to all her children either at home or at the local maternity unit the same as my mum.

How will the census tell you how many of you will become homeless in the future?

And what do you define as homeless?

I found this thread both fascinating and confusing...
I understand there are different types of travellers and that they are ethnically different, but I don't know what the right terms are.
I don't really know what ethnic means.
I am thoroughly confused about the difference between culture and ethnicity.
And have no idea how I am going to complete the census as have a right old combination of ethnicities - or is it cultures - and so will probably just leave the question blank if I'm allowed to do so, and if not allowed to do so I will probably have no idea what to put...

What are the specific needs, OP?

Having Roma, Gypsy and Irish Traveller to choose from is quite a lot.
The 1841 census only had 2 choices in England - born in "same country" and a second box for whether born Scotland Ireland etc and my Irish ancestors on there put "I" (for Ireland) and rest of them all were "born in same country" ie England. There is a lot more choice today.

I think the census is very good and I am very concerned that there are plans to scrap it in 10 years' time which I hope we can all fight as it is very useful to have it even 100 years on. The 1921 census will be released next year by the way for anyone interested in checking ancestors on there.

On how to answer people sould just be as honest and accurate as they can. Eg i think we will put Catholic (or Christian) if that is a category even though no longer regularly go to church as it is probably best they can count the number of Christians compared with other religious but even that one will involve some of us in a bit of debate.

Remember it is to be completed as at census day not as at now in case things are different at home then than now.

Remember it is to be completed as at census day not as at now in case things are different at home then than now.

They said it can be completed before then if you know who'll be there on that day. It can even be completed a few days or so after that day, iirc. They also said if something were to change on that day and you'd already completed it, you can/should contact them.

I already did mine. Unless a stranger were to saunter into our home on Sunday, nothing's going to change.

YABU. There are hundreds of different Ethnicities in this country, it’s simply not possible to list them all, and then you have those that are a mix, so choose what fits best, or put other and specify

The ignorance on this thread is unbelievable.

Yes, but then whilst in the Carribean they mixed with other ethnicities. Obvisouly not everyone, and also created new cultures. Their genetic make up can be very different from a descendant of black African.

Whilst I agree that there is a big cultural difference between black people that have come here directly from Africa and those who came via slavery and the Caribbean, you seem to be under the impression that black Africans are one homogeneous group from a genetic point of view. There is more genetic diversity in people from sub Saharan Africa than in the whole of the rest of the human race. In addition, there has of course been racial mixing with white people, Asian people, Arabs etc in Africa as well.

It is also a choice. People may not consider themselves to be black african or black Carribean anymore. They may consider themselves black British. It's a choice, as well as being slightly different genetic mixes etc.

Yes. I find it rather racist when black people are expected to retain their foreignness for generations, but white people can become white British on official forms after one generation, even with foreign parents.

Remember it is to be completed as at census day not as at now in case things are different at home then than now.

I did mine. If it didn't want me to, it shouldn't have given me the option. It asks about prople being here on certain date. Lockdown made this easy.

@AJ1425

The ignorance on this thread is unbelievable.

Except the first post, I don't think anyone showed ignorance. It's a normal discussion where people educate others and learn. That's how it works normally.

Maybe people could start actually pinpointing the ignorance rather than making vague statements. Now THAT would help the discussion

Thinking about this further, the census is going to hugely underestimate the number of white people with one white parent of non British descent. Most of these probably just tick white British as there's never a box for mixed British and European descent. Whereas if a specific box is provided people are more likely to tick it, even those who could also be identified as white British. Maybe this doesn't matter as this category don't need anything different from everyone else?

If the census really the vehicle to make your needs visible?

Around how you live, for example (travelling) you have said that there are settled Romani.

So doesn’t that mean you need a tick box for Romani (not Roma) - settled
Romani (not Roma) - travelling

Surely a better way to campaign for your needs to be addressed is via the community organisations and lobby groups that exist now, talking not only about numbers but about needs - not a count of pure numbers every 10 years?

What’s going to get a site built - continuous community dialogue with the local council backed up my national lobbying, or once every 10 years someone noting that we have x number of people identifying as Romani - some of whom are happy with being settled, others of whom are just ticking it because a grandmother once romanticised to them that a great great grandmother might have been Romani because she had dark hair 🤷🏻‍♀️

I think visibility of Romani issues is important - but I don’t think the census is wrong.

What a mess. The Scottish Government has a category "Gypsy Traveller" which it defines as Scottish,English,Welsh or Irish Travellers and Gypsy Romany .It doesn't cover New Age Travellers,occupational travellers or Showmen. It's beyond weird excluding showmen as they are a genetically distinct group of travellers. I understand that Romany are thought to be descended from a group of Roma,but this was hundreds of years ago. At this point, lumping Romany in with Roma would be like lumping black Caribbean in with black African. I understand Gypsy is supposed to cover Romany. Gypsy/Romani have been used interchangeably by the community itself for at least a hundred years. Some Romani prefer to think of themselves as Roma. If you prefer you can write Romany in under Other. The census does not seek to impose categories on us. It leaves us free to choose our own . It wants to know what we think. The lists are just the main categories it knows from its research that lots of people use for themselves. There were over 50 White Other categories returned in the last census. The main census results are published. For smaller ethnic groups they have to be very careful what information is released. The information you give is strictly confidential and private. If they made public all the data for some of the smaller groups ( those under Other)it would be tantamount to doxing. For that reason, the main categories have to be those that will produce a reasonably large number of ticks.

@SnackSizeRaisin

Thinking about this further, the census is going to hugely underestimate the number of white people with one white parent of non British descent. Most of these probably just tick white British as there's never a box for mixed British and European descent. Whereas if a specific box is provided people are more likely to tick it, even those who could also be identified as white British. Maybe this doesn't matter as this category don't need anything different from everyone else?

We have “Other” and a free text box though.

Sure you could put a mixed box (although some people find that term offensive, I believe).

But then wouldn’t you say, “hey - how come you get to say that you’re Roma, but I can’t but more details than “mixed”... why should I who is Nigerian / Welsh be in the same box as my neighbour who is Thai / Australian?”

Just put the detail in the free text box. There’s no way to have a box for everyone. So write what you are, and let the census analysts doing their job in grouping together the free text options into meaningful groups. e.g. Nigerian / Welsh can be added to Welsh / Nigerian.

The mixed box the went to a sub question where you pick from a list with two race/ethnicity options and then had other because you may not be listed or might be mixed of more than two.