Census I don't belong.

[Devlesko]

I'm equally sadened and angered.
Every other ethnicity covered as far as I know, all other travelling groups rightly so. Roma who are here from Eastern Europe.

We have been told by campaigners to stand up and be counted so that we can access healthcare and schools.
Now we are white other, not a mention.

It's not just semantics we are all different ethnicities with separate cultures, the only similarity is we travel, or try to. Our DNA is distinctive to our ethnicity Irish and Romany are completely different.

What is a gypsy? What ethnicity? It doesn't exist. But more recently those who are interested and thank you, know that Romany originate from India, around 1,500 years ago and have been in the UK for 500 years.
During which time we have been enslaved, tortured, murdered, transported, hated by society and persecuted by Kings and Governments.

I'm sick of the back door laws to erode if not annilate our culture. It just isn't fair. Society tars us all with the same brush, but you can ask any health visitor who has ever visited how family orientated we are and spotlessley clean.

Gypsy is a slur for American Romany and Europeans. But it's that bad in the UK where we face racism daily that it's hardly worth fighting the use of the word "gypsy"

I'm writing this because I know whilst theres a few on here with Romany links, Mumsnet is a new audience and apart from me very few would venture. That is nothing personal, just a different culture.

So when you see us being refused service in a pub, restaurant, wedding reception venue, don't spit at us, laugh, call us names, we are human.

It's difficult to gain an education even if you do want to.
You need a permanant address and council sites don't offer this.

You need a permanant address and council sites don't offer this

You know what provides a permanent address? A permanent home. Which is what a child needs as they are educated. And its up to the parents to provide.

Anyway, you don't need a permanent address to attend school, thats not true.

@Devlesko

It's difficult to gain an education even if you do want to. You need a permanant address and council sites don't offer this.

Oh come on - that is simply not true.

I don’t doubt that there are issues around your community engaging with school, and sadly bullying. But your child is legally entitled to a school place even if they’re parked up on a roadside somewhere, let alone renting a pitch on a council site!

Just one of the many many websites (because all the local authorities have policies) if anyone wants to take a look:

www.barnsley.gov.uk/services/children-families-and-education/schools-and-learning/traveller-children/

Educate us about the issues your community face, but don’t make stuff up that isn’t true.

I ought to know better than what is reported in one area.
It's hard to gain an education when you are forced to move.
If you are static, no problem at all, if you own the land, no problem.
When you find a place for the 6 months you are there, it's usually colouring in at the back of the class.
Don't call me a liar about something I'm knowledgeable about.
Our children usually attend school during primary, off and on.
Mine didn't as we travelled, so were h.ed
All of mine attended school for GCSE's and our youngest attends an elite specialist school, where she boards, currently taking 2A levels .
We have all sorts of different professions so obviously some go into higher ed as well.
Nobody is denied an education it just isn't readily available to all.

You aren't forced to move. You choose to move. You choose to prevent your children from attending school.
That's your right to do, but own it. Don't blame it on the councils or anyone else.

I'll blame it on whoever makes it difficult for our children to gain an education.
I'll remember to tell my family to refuse to move when their tenancy is up, because they have a school they attend
You really have no idea.

I'll blame it on whoever makes it difficult for our children to gain an education

That'll be their parents then.

I'll remember to tell my family to refuse to move when their tenancy is up, because they have a school they attend

If you're talking about rental properties, the majority of parents manage perfectly well to keep their kids in school and move as well.

One area AS AN EXAMPLE - and actually I was sharing their reference to national policy, that all children are legally entitled to a school place. I only shared that particular link to show that I wasn’t making stuff up myself.

I acknowledged in my reply that I was sure there were issues of engagement, and I asked you to educate us about the issues you face.

I know you’re not lying when you say a child might do little more than colour in at the back when they’re transient. Most teachers will do their professional utmost for your child - but I’m sure some we’ll think, “she’ll be gone next week, so who cares?”

I fully believe you that accessing education is very difficult in a travelling community. I’m not naïve enough to believe that you get offered a place in a school down the road (my own child was forced out of catchment). I also sure that many of your children face suspicion and bullying. There are many and complex problems.

But you cannot say what you did - that without a permanent address you cannot access education. That is not true.

I don’t know either Council sites offer a permanent address, though that’s irrelevant.

My view, is that the state should provide the right to a school place - whether you are living at a permanent address or temporary, or whether it’s not even an address but a lay-by.

Happily - the state agrees with me on that.

I also think that the state should provide a sufficient number of Council site places to meet demand for those who don’t wish to join the settled regular housing list.

Again, the state actually agrees (hence the GTAA). Sadly the implementation of that is nowhere up to scratch - but I don’t think that’s an issue exclusive to your community - we have families in B&Bs everywhere, for example.

I honestly have mixed views about providing transient sites. I can see the argument that travelling is part of your culture, and the state should work to preserve the rich cultural diversity of its nation. But I also see the argument that providing one base site is the limit of state’s housing responsibility, and if travelling is culturally important to your community - then that’s your business to sort out.

Of course - the state can still help there - sympathetic planning policies towards privately run traveller temporary sites - community owned sites.

I also think that there’s no reason for the state not to support your children’s education. For example, making sure that teachers are trained to understand your culture and know the best way to help a child settle into class work, or how to support learning outside the classroom when travelling. My friend teaches in a school where a significant number of children go to Pakistan for 3 months. The school work with the families on that.

However, my absolute bottom line on this is: the responsibly for accessing education lies with the parents. There are options, as you’ve shown for your own children. But you simply can’t blame anyone else but the parent if they decide that having their child travel is more important to them, than having them consistently attend the same bricks and mortar school.

@HotCrossBumsticks

I'll blame it on whoever makes it difficult for our children to gain an education

That'll be their parents then.

I'll remember to tell my family to refuse to move when their tenancy is up, because they have a school they attend

If you're talking about rental properties, the majority of parents manage perfectly well to keep their kids in school and move as well.

what every 6 months, I doubt it. The parents send the kids to school when they can, can't do more than that. I'm not talking about rental properties, apart from those living in council houses, who have long tennancies. Those on sites that they don't own, which is the majority, not much joy I'm afraid.

@Cocomarine

My view, is that the state should provide the right to a school place - whether you are living at a permanent address or temporary, or whether it’s not even an address but a lay-by.

Happily - the state agrees with me on that.

I also think that the state should provide a sufficient number of Council site places to meet demand for those who don’t wish to join the settled regular housing list.

Again, the state actually agrees (hence the GTAA). Sadly the implementation of that is nowhere up to scratch - but I don’t think that’s an issue exclusive to your community - we have families in B&Bs everywhere, for example.

I honestly have mixed views about providing transient sites. I can see the argument that travelling is part of your culture, and the state should work to preserve the rich cultural diversity of its nation. But I also see the argument that providing one base site is the limit of state’s housing responsibility, and if travelling is culturally important to your community - then that’s your business to sort out.

Of course - the state can still help there - sympathetic planning policies towards privately run traveller temporary sites - community owned sites.

I also think that there’s no reason for the state not to support your children’s education. For example, making sure that teachers are trained to understand your culture and know the best way to help a child settle into class work, or how to support learning outside the classroom when travelling. My friend teaches in a school where a significant number of children go to Pakistan for 3 months. The school work with the families on that.

However, my absolute bottom line on this is: the responsibly for accessing education lies with the parents. There are options, as you’ve shown for your own children. But you simply can’t blame anyone else but the parent if they decide that having their child travel is more important to them, than having them consistently attend the same bricks and mortar school.

So tell me how we keep this rich cultural diversity if we are forced to live in bricks n mortar? It's a choice between keeping culture and taking on another culture to gain fair access to services. No disrespect to you but you can't understand the issues if you aren't involved. Yes, you can provide links of what should happen and what is promised, but it doesn't materialise into anything that helps at all. I've seen the promises that haven't materialised. One of my first cousin has a private tutor for her twins, he teaches them Maths and English and they'll take them at GCSE, then it's either apprenticeship/ NVQ for a trade or further/ higher ed, depending on the family, background and ability of the student. Mine work as a mortgage advisor, call centre, and our youngest is a musician.

what every 6 months, I doubt it.The parents send the kids to school when they can, can't do more than that.I'm not talking about rental properties, apart from those living in council houses, who have long tennancies.Those on sites that they don't own, which is the majority, not much joy I'm afraid

Then they need to stop living on sites they don't own and moving every six months. They need to get a proper house and do better than sending their kids to school as and when. They CAN do better than that.

So tell me how we keep this rich cultural diversity if we are forced to live in bricks n mortar?It's a choice between keeping culture and taking on another culture to gain fair access to services

Firstly, you don't seem able to explain what this rich cultural diversity consists of. And secondly, you already said that settled, not travelling people are still culturally travellers.
So what is it, and which is it?

I was quoting "rich cultural diversity", from cocomarine
How on earth can they live elsewhere? Unless of course you expect them to move into council houses. Good luck with that, the lists are endless.
Where on earth you expect people to go I have no idea.
Can't travel, few sites, and no chance of buying land, forget that.
Councillors are too bothered appeasing the racist public with their nimby attitude.
As for education, don't forget a whole generation were put off sending their children to secondary school after poor Johnny Delaney was murdered.

@Devlesko

I teach a lot of Romany children and we have loads of cultural awareness training regarding the Romany community.

Do you want access to the small number of state boarding schools for your children?

I honestly can’t work out what you actually want. You can’t have both one consistent bricks and mortar school for your child, and travel. That is NOT the fault of the state. From what I’ve read, some Romany families choose a fixed base for a period because of education - doesn’t change who they are, they are still culturally travellers, and they may travel out of term time anyway.

You keep telling us that Romany have varied occupations - yes, they do. Which means they don’t all need the housing association list, they rent or buy like anyone else.

I would love to see adequate numbers of council sites. And yes, cheaper than providing bricks and mortar housing!
I think it’s unfair that planning applications are vehemently opposed, and I know that it’s racism as well as Nimbyism behind that.

But I don’t see how meeting the responsibility on sites addresses the issue of children not being in one place to receive a consistent education.

All cultures change and adapt over time. However many years ago, children didn’t need to be educated beyond a young age. Now - they do.

No, we are the only Romany I've heard use boarding
It's the school that fit my child, as exceptionally gifted. Her friends are from all over the world and she seems at home with them, and has never experienced bullying, because they are all different nationalities, colours and creeds.
I disagree about children needing to be educated in the way I imagine you mean.
It would be good for those who want it to be allowed to access it though.
A permanant council site with permanant tenancy would allow for this.
Having to move every 6 months because you can only access a transitional site is not conducive to a consistent education.
6 months here and there is useless.

Please don’t “imagine” that I mean anything.

You’re as slippery as a politician!

I’m not imagining anything about the education that you want access to - which is precisely why I asked about state boarding. Nothing to do with your child - just a possible solution for families who wish to travel but also wish their child to have a consistent bricks and mortar school location for their education.

Why won’t you just answer what you want?

Parents in the travelling communities can access bricks and mortar education for their child now, that is a legal right - even without a permanent address, as you wrongly said earlier.

However, if they want to stick to one school, they have to stick to one location (at least in term time, or part of the family series). That can be a big problem if there aren’t enough permanent sites - which is definitely the case, and a mix of the wider housing crisis and local hostility to planning applications.
But the issue there is site spaces, not a right to access education.

If a family prefers to travel and chooses that over a state bricks and mortar school then what are you saying denies them access to education?

Again, what do you want? If travelling isn’t a barrier to educating your child, great - get on with that. If it is a barrier - and you don’t want to settle during those years - how do you propose to address that?

Travelling wasn't a barrier for us, I'm a qualified teacher, holding a PGCE.
I'm one on my own from my generation and many previous generations will receive a basic education at primary level if they are lucky.
That isn't cultural necessary but lack of access.
You say that provision is there, but it's not worth Jack if you are unable to access it through fear or barriers, such as being able to gain access to a permanant site.

I honestly have no problem with any questions you ask, and I'm not trying to be slippery, I thought I was telling it how it is.

My dd is home soon, but I will leave this here for now, the link to the new law is in the report too, but people may have seen this already.

www.travellerstimes.org.uk/index.php/news/2020/09/home-secretary-priti-patel-under-fire-telling-jewish-leaders-traveller-family-murdered

www.travellerstimes.org.uk/index.php/news/2021/01/nowhere-go-thousands-gypsies-and-travellers-waiting-lists-homes-council-traveller

The Police commisioner has even said his question when asked to move us along is "To where"

How on earth can they live elsewhere? Unless of course you expect them to move into council houses. Good luck with that, the lists are endless.Where on earth you expect people to go I have no idea.
Can't travel, few sites, and no chance of buying land, forget that

They could do what every other person does and rent a home or save for a mortgage. What is so special about them that they can't do what everyone else does?

What’s the difference between living on a permanent site and living in a park home?

@HotCrossBumsticks

*How on earth can they live elsewhere? Unless of course you expect them to move into council houses. Good luck with that, the lists are endless.Where on earth you expect people to go I have no idea. Can't travel, few sites, and no chance of buying land, forget that*

They could do what every other person does and rent a home or save for a mortgage. What is so special about them that they can't do what everyone else does?

What is so special about you that you live in a house and don't travel? What a silly question. It's our culture, our identity, our belief system, heritage and our social norms. Being in this house for so long (covid) nobodies fault, is claustaphobic, and drivig me mad. I'm usually travelling and working 9/10 months of the year.

PattyPan

We live with multi generations on a site, whole extended families.
I doubt a park home could meet our needs.

I'm still so confused as to what you actually want. Children have the right to healthcare and education but you claim you can't access them because of your cultural requirements. What can actually happen for you to have it both ways?

Who are you expecting to pay for the sites, grass, and clean water?

And, as has been asked a hundred times, how on earth is having a special box on the census going to help you achieve any of it?

@Devlesko

Which borough do you pay council tax in if you’re travelling? Or is there an alternative system for travelling communities?

Develsko, I’m also confused by what you actually want tbh. You say you need to travel around as this is your tradition. But the fact is, in this way of life, there will inevitably be setbacks for your children in terms of accessing education. Even if every school throws open it’s doors to you the second you arrive, they will still suffer from inconsistency. I mean, we could all wander about randomly, but we don’t, because we put our children’s needs and their educations first.

As for “traditions,” well, every family and every ethnicity / nationality has those. I’m from Spain and my family were farmers. Does that mean I have to do this for evermore - even though life was tough and there were few opportunities (especially for women)? No. Why the hell should I be consigned to cooking and cleaning and keeping a “spotless home” for life? Tradition? Sorry, but bollocks to that. Humans have to evolve, progress and move with the times. “Tradition” too often is used as an excuse for oppression. You can respect the past without having to live it! Otherwise, we’d all still be in caves.