Census I don't belong.

[Devlesko]

I'm equally sadened and angered.
Every other ethnicity covered as far as I know, all other travelling groups rightly so. Roma who are here from Eastern Europe.

We have been told by campaigners to stand up and be counted so that we can access healthcare and schools.
Now we are white other, not a mention.

It's not just semantics we are all different ethnicities with separate cultures, the only similarity is we travel, or try to. Our DNA is distinctive to our ethnicity Irish and Romany are completely different.

What is a gypsy? What ethnicity? It doesn't exist. But more recently those who are interested and thank you, know that Romany originate from India, around 1,500 years ago and have been in the UK for 500 years.
During which time we have been enslaved, tortured, murdered, transported, hated by society and persecuted by Kings and Governments.

I'm sick of the back door laws to erode if not annilate our culture. It just isn't fair. Society tars us all with the same brush, but you can ask any health visitor who has ever visited how family orientated we are and spotlessley clean.

Gypsy is a slur for American Romany and Europeans. But it's that bad in the UK where we face racism daily that it's hardly worth fighting the use of the word "gypsy"

I'm writing this because I know whilst theres a few on here with Romany links, Mumsnet is a new audience and apart from me very few would venture. That is nothing personal, just a different culture.

So when you see us being refused service in a pub, restaurant, wedding reception venue, don't spit at us, laugh, call us names, we are human.

Which is a lovely story, but what’s to say that she wasn’t just racist towards “tinkers”, if that was the Irish Traveller community then?

Perhaps some “tinkers” said that said that some of the Romany gave them a bad name?

@LApprentiSorcier

Perhaps if enough people put it in the free format, it will be an option in future surveys and the next census?

This

A computer will gather data from the census which is why everyone needs to consider carefully their most accurate answers and which if they want their community to receive support best supports that.

So whilst everyone could tick other and write Jedi Knight or something that is not going to get more financial help for the Roma or others.

I take the point on the thread. When I was a little girl in the 1960s we knew a fair bit about the romanies and I remember our mother telling us about them and they were described in books. Only later did I even know Irish travellers were also here - perhaps they just never made it to my bit of the NE. We obviously knew about all the 1970s hippies - totally different group and not going to be in any statistics as not really an ethnic group in that sense.

The "Roma" today I take to be that group usually from Romania, new arrivals and different from the traditional romanies in the UK in terms of how they live their lives.

"She was not very polite about tinkers, which was what she called non-Romany travellers; she said they were dirty and got anyone who didn't live in a house a bad name. So I suppose I grew up knowing that not everyone with a van is the same as every other person with a van."

I was also brought up "there's a difference between travellers and Romany" with the assumption that Romany/gypsies were better, though I think it was targeted at new age travellers rather than Irish Travellers. Looking back I realise now that was a racist belief in itself.

But we're all saying been here before, many times. Chip, chip, chip more taken away until it's impossible for us to live, unless we accept a council house.

What has been taken from you that you think you should get back? What support do you think you should get that you;re not getting?

es, you are still a traveller even if you don't travel.Even our teens roll their eyes at that assumption.It's like you stop the culture and your ethnicty just because you aren't on the road

What culture do you have as none travelling traveller that you need support and assistance with? You seem unable to say. What culture do you have that you are worried is being somehow removed from you?

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

When I was a baby my mother invited into our house in a snowstorm a woman with a very young baby, who was freezing as she went from door to door trying to sell -- I think probably clothes-pegs. The result was that when she came through our town on the round her family did (hops in Kent, picking soft fruit somewhere else, apples for two or three farms in the autumn, and so on) she would come to see us, and since her son and I were the same age she would laugh that one day she would steal me away... I longed to go! I am reasonably sure she was Romany, and I will never forget once her sitting in the kitchen having tea with my mother and explaining that they (the authorities, understood) wanted her and her family to take a council house and stop travelling, but she couldn't. She needed to see trees from her window to be able to breathe, and different trees at different times, so she'd shrivel up in a council estate with maybe a bit of grass but nothing growing wild for her to rest her eyes on. We kept a mug for only her to use, and she washed it before the tea was poured, every single time. My mother taught her son to read one year, because she said they were never in one place for long enough for him to get proper schooling, and someone needed to be able to read the forms.

One of the results of that friendship was that our local council got several earfuls from my mother over a few years, and for quite a while we had one of the few councils that provided good resting places for the Romany, with running water at them. Gone now; there is housing over that patch of open ground with hedges round it.

She was not very polite about tinkers, which was what she called non-Romany travellers; she said they were dirty and got anyone who didn't live in a house a bad name. So I suppose I grew up knowing that not everyone with a van is the same as every other person with a van.

Aw such a lovely story, have a look on my thread for some links if you are interested in the history, it's comparitively quite recent that we are able to piece everything together.

@FullofCurryandparatha

But we're all saying been here before, many times. Chip, chip, chip more taken away until it's impossible for us to live, unless we accept a council house.

What has been taken from you that you think you should get back? What support do you think you should get that you;re not getting?

The right to roam, the right for education for children, healthcare, councils to provide enough sites, education of society, for racism to be acknowledged, clean water, grass and necessary provision for those with horses. Common land being given back to the people. Unless you are a recognised race how can you possibly be offered the services and support you need. Approach the European Roma present in the UK and none of these issues apply to them. They apply to Irish Travellers who are considered a race quite separate to that of Romany. Yes, the words are used interchangeably but it doesn't mean to say they mean the same. Now we are going to be made criminals thanks to Priti Patel. Can we fight back, of course not if we aren't even considered a race.

@Devlesko as a discriminated against community yourself, what did you think of the part of the “lovely” story where the assumed Romany woman was so rude about “tinkers”?

It's not necessarily practical to include a box for every ethnicity. If I moved to the UK next week, which lots of other people I know have, there is no ethnicity box that really captures my experience or the needs of my community. That is, I could tick myself as belonging to a larger ethnicity which is accurate enough but it doesn't really capture finer divisions within that, of which there are a number.

While I think accurate statistics are important and useful, increasingly it seems that trying to divide people up by ethnicity in this way is a useless task.

As far as needs of a particular group not being met: the census will not do this. What has to happen is that you need some sort of representative group that will collate what these needs are, and also decide what part of those needs really should be provided by the state, and what needs could best be taken care of by some sort of action or management on the part of the group.

If, for example, bad actors cause communities to not what overnight caravans in open spaces - that is not unreasonable. Because they don't actually have the capacity to allow some and refuse others. So what to do? Or the same communities don't want to be solely financially responsible for the upkeep of these areas - also not unreasonable. These are just examples and not necessarily the best ones, but they are the kind of thing that representative groups are very useful for. It's almost always better to look at what can be done within the group to achieve an end before going to governing bodies, and then there should be concrete suggestions if possible.

In reality often the first difficulty is actually having some sort of consensus on those issues, where there can be a good faith claim to actually be representing the group. That can be a lot of hard work.

cocomarine

Old racism, it's not something I'm aware of.
Whilst I and other Romany I know, fight against racism for all travellers.
I started the Pontins thread a few weeks ago and have given examples elsewhere how Irish travellers have been singled out unfairly.
So to me ito race there is no difference in the level of racism and discrimination both races receive.
My apologies for sounding flippant before, it wasn't my intention. There's an Irish traveller on here, not seen her for a while, but we swopped several AMA traveller topics.

My partners ethnicity wasn't listed so we just typed it in the box

@Devlesko you haven’t answered my question about why you think the every 10 year high level Census is key to meeting your cultural needs, above community groups working continuously with the state.

I’m interested in your position, and did some more googling.

The Housing Act 2004 requires local authorities to conduct of update a Gypsy and Traveller Accommodation Assessment for their area at least every 5 years (as it is a 5 year projection).

It you Google “GTAA Gypsy” there are lots of examples, and all recent.

I scanned one - it separates its sections and comments by Gypsy, Traveller and Showmen. Within those, it separates settled and non settled. In the survey, the questions are as detailed as asking whether there is anyone in the family who will need their own pitch in the next 5 years.

In the survey, there is an ethnicity questions, and the options are (in this order), but my emphasis:
- Romany Gypsy

• Irish Traveller
• Scots Gypsy or Traveller
• Show Person
• New Traveller
• English Traveller
• Welsh Gypsy
• Non Traveller
• Other (please specify)

Surely this means that the state are, outwith the census, providing ample opportunity to count the number of British Romany, let alone assess their needs?

Now if you want to tell me that the data is there but local authorities then fail to act on the data adequately, I’ll listen. God knows our state fails in many ways.

But I just can’t see the legally protected racial status, the legal requirement of the GTAA, and the detail within it - and then agree that the Census 2021 is deny your existence. It just isn’t stating every ethnicity there could be.

@SmokedDuck I totally agree with you... and that’s what I thought too until I read about the existence GTAA (see my post above) which seems to suggest that the kind of lobbying you suggest has either happened and been acted upon, or wasn’t needed to get action.

[quote Cocomarine]@Devlesko you haven’t answered my question about why you think the every 10 year high level Census is key to meeting your cultural needs, above community groups working continuously with the state.

I’m interested in your position, and did some more googling.

The Housing Act 2004 requires local authorities to conduct of update a Gypsy and Traveller Accommodation Assessment for their area at least every 5 years (as it is a 5 year projection).

It you Google “GTAA Gypsy” there are lots of examples, and all recent.

I scanned one - it separates its sections and comments by Gypsy, Traveller and Showmen. Within those, it separates settled and non settled. In the survey, the questions are as detailed as asking whether there is anyone in the family who will need their own pitch in the next 5 years.

In the survey, there is an ethnicity questions, and the options are (in this order), but my emphasis:
- Romany Gypsy

• Irish Traveller
• Scots Gypsy or Traveller
• Show Person
• New Traveller
• English Traveller
• Welsh Gypsy
• Non Traveller
• Other (please specify)

Surely this means that the state are, outwith the census, providing ample opportunity to count the number of British Romany, let alone assess their needs?

Now if you want to tell me that the data is there but local authorities then fail to act on the data adequately, I’ll listen. God knows our state fails in many ways.

But I just can’t see the legally protected racial status, the legal requirement of the GTAA, and the detail within it - and then agree that the Census 2021 is deny your existence. It just isn’t stating every ethnicity there could be.[/quote]
They don't listen and don't provide services.
Our young people are waiting for sites, over 1,000.
That will of course include Irish Travellers I believe.
Where Romany are concerned I've seen councils suggest that Romany are gypsies. This isn't usually a problem as it isn't considered as a slur in the UK. I'm not offended at the word, just that it isn't a race or an ethnicity.
A census itself isn't going to address these issues of course, but this is just another way that will throw many off, because they don't understand.
I know many have chosen Roma and for anything else it wouldn't matter.
We were promised our own category the same as show people and it didn't happen.
This on top of the new laws to criminalise us, is just insane.

Being in the census won't achieve those ends, OP. You need an organisation/leadership to represent what you want.

Grass roots organisations are the only way to get this work done well. Even if they want to, government bodies can't do it otherwise.

Why can’t the councils suggest that Romany are gypsies, when on the first page of your AMA you, as a Romany and Gypsiologist, refer to Romany Gypsies? 🤨

Local council get a lot of things wrong, but I find it hard to believe they didn’t constant for acceptable terms for the GTAA.

I do appreciate you taking the time to answer questions. I used to work opposite a council run site (many years ago) and was quite fascinated then - I worked in a busy transportation depot and occasionally we’d have to stop all movements because a horse had wandered into our site from theirs! 🤣

I’m just pretty confused from you by the gypsies or not gypsies terminology. I can see why you’d personally distance yourself from it (and trust me, I knew it was a slur when my shift lead said, “bloody gyppo horses are out again”, and said as much to him).

But that doesn’t mean the council are wrong to use it. The Gypsy Council U.K. uses it. Other traveller organisation websites seem to use it.

And whether you want the Census to say Romany, British Romany, Romany Gypsy... I still think its not the vehicle for you to ensure visibility and the meeting of your needs. Go with the existing legal requirements like three GTAA and you’re part of the way into the fight already.

If a number on the census is important: organise a grass roots movement to have your community use the “other” free text in a consistent way.

Also, whilst I don’t want a race to the bottom...
Homeless young people with a 1000 waiting for a site place?
Is that persecution of your community, or a reflection of the wider housing crisis?
How many MN members are over crowded, living with relatives, or privately renting with no chance of housing association housing?

I know, exactly. Why add to that list people who don't want housing.
It costs more for a council to clean up from the disgusting people that leave a mess than it would to provide the site. No, I don't condone their behaviour, we are meticulously clean.

Don't get me started on local objections to planning permission, when the land had previously had the same permission.
word got out it was "gypsies".
I don't think the census itself would solve all the problems of course.
But now the knock on effect will change things.
Now, was the time to stand up and be counted, for all those untrusting of governments.
It was explained to us that it was important for gov to make the right decisions and provide services.
I'm not even telling you what will do ito trust for vaccines.

I do try my best, but I'm one voice.

The pp who was asking about intermarriage.
Yes, we come from a small gene pool, and follow part of the old Indian caste system.
But nobody is forced to live a certain way or is alienated, that isn't true.
I married a gorger and my position within my extended family hasn't changed. They respect him as one of their own as he is family, but not Romany.

This makes it crystal clear

The right to roam, the right for education for children, healthcare, councils to provide enough sites, education of society, for racism to be acknowledged, clean water, grass and necessary provision for those with horses.Common land being given back to the people.Unless you are a recognised race how can you possibly be offered the services and support you need

You are a recognised race, but that doesn't mean you are going to get any of that. Common land being given back to the people? That's a ridiculous expectation, and even if it happened, "the people" wouldn't want halting sites on their common land.
You have the right to education, unfortunately a lot of travellers refuse to send their children consistently, Councils to provide sites for your to roam between, with water and services and grass for horses....that's insanity. With what money? Certainly not the local taxes that you wouldn't be paying while you're roaming around the countryside, not sending your children to school or reporting your income.
You know as well as everyone else here that travelling is an anachronism and barely happens any more. You know that almost all travellers are now settled and don't need any of those services. You also know that its never, ever going to happen.
So, your point is that you want to be counted in the census as distinct from every other "travelling" group, a tiny minority of a tiny minority. So write in the other box like many of us have to.

@Devlesko as a discriminated against community yourself, what did you think of the part of the “lovely” story where the assumed Romany woman was so rude about “tinkers”?

Or the bit where the child had been denied an education by his family.