Census I don't belong.

[Devlesko]

I'm equally sadened and angered.
Every other ethnicity covered as far as I know, all other travelling groups rightly so. Roma who are here from Eastern Europe.

We have been told by campaigners to stand up and be counted so that we can access healthcare and schools.
Now we are white other, not a mention.

It's not just semantics we are all different ethnicities with separate cultures, the only similarity is we travel, or try to. Our DNA is distinctive to our ethnicity Irish and Romany are completely different.

What is a gypsy? What ethnicity? It doesn't exist. But more recently those who are interested and thank you, know that Romany originate from India, around 1,500 years ago and have been in the UK for 500 years.
During which time we have been enslaved, tortured, murdered, transported, hated by society and persecuted by Kings and Governments.

I'm sick of the back door laws to erode if not annilate our culture. It just isn't fair. Society tars us all with the same brush, but you can ask any health visitor who has ever visited how family orientated we are and spotlessley clean.

Gypsy is a slur for American Romany and Europeans. But it's that bad in the UK where we face racism daily that it's hardly worth fighting the use of the word "gypsy"

I'm writing this because I know whilst theres a few on here with Romany links, Mumsnet is a new audience and apart from me very few would venture. That is nothing personal, just a different culture.

So when you see us being refused service in a pub, restaurant, wedding reception venue, don't spit at us, laugh, call us names, we are human.

@FullofCurryandparatha

Some Romany live in houses, and people say they are "settled" but you don't stop being a traveller, it's in your blood.You still follow the same culture, and your house rather than you trailor or van is spotless

But that's nonsense, isn't it? If you're settled, and your parents were settled, and you grandparents were settled, you're not a traveller. You don't travel. You don't have a nomadic way of life and you have the same basic culture as everyone else.

Keeping your girls home from school to clean all day is not a culture.

Yes, you are still a traveller even if you don't travel. Even our teens roll their eyes at that assumption. It's like you stop the culture and your ethnicty just because you aren't on the road. It's very rare that parents and grandparents didn't travel. It was the ethnic cleansing of the 60's that was the final nail ito freedom to travel.

@Gwenhwyfar

"Yes but if you have a culture that is tight then it is likely"

Yes, I was afraid to say which cultures I thought would be less likely to marry out in case of being criticised for stereotyping or something.
I know Italians living in another country in Europe where there is a sizeable Italian community and the Italians who have just arrived do not see the existing Italian community as being fully Italian like them, if you see what I mean.

But I wasn’t talking about Italians coming in and marrying Italians already there. I was talking about subset communities and how people identify with their culture passed down to them regardless of the country they live in. I’m not saying this is an Italian thing. I’m saying it could happen with anyone from any country with a strong sense of culture, traditions, language etc. If all your family are of the same heritage but have lived in a different country from a few generations, chances are people will still identify with their heritage. It seems like some people only accept this if people are POC. A few posters have expressed how they are from another ethnicity but born here so don’t see themselves as British but not the other ethnicity or vice versa. There is an option for British Asian (so Asian families in Britain marrying into Asian in Britain for a couple of generations which you say is unlikely but has it an own box for) on the census but it didn’t seem to have that option for other races. And I have already expressed how I feel about the Asian box.

Plenty of people are saying there is no box for them.

My point about using urial families was regarding people saying you’re not a traveller if you don’t travel or haven’t for multiple generations. I’m just saying there is a lot more to it especially if you are only all having families with in the same community.

I’m not sure how my fat thumbs typed urial instead of Italian! I didn’t even know that was a word! Many apologies

Like I said before, it isn't just about not having a category, normally on an international level Roma, Romany and gypsy (where acceptable) are often considered interchangeable as there are similarities in issues of racism and discrimination.
Hower at an individual country level there are different issues as discussed.
This was a way of being identified and our social and cultural needs assessed and met. Which in this country are completely different to EU Roma, temporarily in the UK.

@MiddleClassProblem

I’m not sure how my fat thumbs typed urial instead of Italian! I didn’t even know that was a word! Many apologies

I was just going to ask what urial meant. Thought you understood something I didn't.

I still don’t understand why a once in 10 years census is so important to meeting your community’s social and cultural needs now.

I said it above - that’s the role of community leaders to lobby immediately.

You say that you’re certain that if settled Romany could travel, they would. But the census wouldn’t measure that. All cultures change as they move through generations. Are you really sure a % wouldn’t be happy to settle? And if so, what is that %? That’s not going to be reflected in the census.

You feel that the number of Romany in the U.K. isn’t recorded because of the census - but are you sure it’s not well understood at local authority level, counted out with the census? I worked in a area with a high travelling community, with support workers dedicated to the local council* provided site. I’d be surprised if they didn’t know quite a lot about who was there.

If the Romany community need to be heard counted, I don’t think the census is the way to do that.

If you take for example the Muslim Council of Britain - are they not more politically impactful than simply a 10 yearly count?

*I say council - I don’t know who is actually responsible, but I mean a site designated by the state, not private

The Romany have been present as a distinct group in Britain for centuries now, so I can quite see why it is questionable for them to now be lumped in with another very distinct group. Yes, the roots may be the same, but over all that time differences in culture will have emerged.

That’s without even considering the context of legal changes. When you add those in, it’s clear why people like op are very worried that they aren’t being recognised.

I see the Romany people as having a long history here and the census doesn’t seem to recognise that. I hope there is other research tracking how many people consider themselves part of this group.

It is so worrying.
I'm glad Roma and Irish travellers have been recognised, but I fear this is planned, once again.
Roma in the UK live in houses, yes they need support like any other group/race in another country, but their needs differ greatly from ours.
Gypsy isn't a race or an ethnicity, it's a word that so many individuals and companies use, usually to stereotype travellers.
Not being recognised by our race and ethnicity leaves us open to whatever gov want to do to us.
The Irish travellers will be fine because dual passport allows them to return to Ireland, they are also protected by the EU.
I'm not even sure if the ERRC will represent us anymore.
Our human rights are to be taken away from us pretty damn soon, it isn't just a case of ticking the nearest box, it's being recognised as a race, like every other race.

I honestly don't think that having roma nkt romany is a gob issue. It has been consulted and both words are used even on all the websites I can find which are actually roma/romani groups.

If there is a distinction to be made then the councils for the group should be making that point at the time of consultation. It doesn't look like they did.

Haven't RTFT but you can fill in your own.

One of my parents was an unusual combination, so I ticked 'other' and described myself in the relevant box.

@Cabinfever10

Oh crap *@Devlesko* sorry I've just seen your update that roma and romany are different so I clearly know even less than I thought I did

I didn't either, @Cabinfever10 and I used to work with gipsy and traveller families.

Been on training courses and everything and I had no idea.

My fear is when it comes down to human rights.
Article 8 is an appropriate one, but there are others.
I wish I was more articulate, but my parents can hardly write their own names. So I did ok
There are no leaders to stand up, there are a few activists and scholars, charities and groups who do an amazing job, but governments need to be prepared to provide the service Romany travellers need.
We can put Romany down but chances are it will be the emphisis on the word gypsy that is assumed.
This is social engineering, but you sound like some sort of conspiricist if you say so.
But we're all saying been here before, many times. Chip, chip, chip more taken away until it's impossible for us to live, unless we accept a council house.
Ridiculous when there are those that need and want them.

Why do you think the ERRC might not represent you?
That’s nothing to do with the U.K. census.
Incidentally, I had to Google ERRC, and in looking at a 2020 story about senior legal appointments, I can see them using Romani and Roma interchangeablely.

And again, WHAT NEEDS?

The rights of travellers are being curtailed because of the mess, rubbish and human faeces that are left when they move on from a pitch. It costs each local authority a bomb. There are often stop off in between licences pitches, and the result is the same.

Littering the countryside and leaving unsanitary waste is not ‘culture’.

I’m still waiting to hear what the ‘needs’ are that are so different that no other ethnic category will fit (I’m Irish American British, my kids the same plus Russian plus Georgian and Ukrainian).

@Devlesko

It is so worrying. I'm glad Roma and Irish travellers have been recognised, but I fear this is planned, once again. Roma in the UK live in houses, yes they need support like any other group/race in another country, but their needs differ greatly from ours. Gypsy isn't a race or an ethnicity, it's a word that so many individuals and companies use, usually to stereotype travellers. Not being recognised by our race and ethnicity leaves us open to whatever gov want to do to us. The Irish travellers will be fine because dual passport allows them to return to Ireland, they are also protected by the EU. I'm not even sure if the ERRC will represent us anymore. Our human rights are to be taken away from us pretty damn soon, it isn't just a case of ticking the nearest box, it's being recognised as a race, like every other race.

I do take exception to the flippant assertion that Irish Travellers can just “return” to Ireland with their passports.

The first wave of Irish Travellers came to the U.K. as a result of the potato famines in the 1850s. Do their descendants have Irish passports? Are they entitled to them? I’d so would they have the documentation to prove it? And even if they already have an Irish passport, how much different is it saying they’ll be fine - just go back to Ireland (200 years later) to telling a British Romany that they’ll be fine, you can travel freely in Northern India (500 years later)?

I do understand the need for a community to fight for its needs and culture. Traveller (multiple types) are repeatedly shown to be the most socially disadvantaged group in the U.K. That’s a problem that needs to be addressed.

I still don’t understand the issue with the Census though.

There is the “other” option where you can put all the detail you like. That’s been said here by many people.

In the “White British” section, Gypsy, Irish Traveller and Roma were all stated separately.

I understand that Gypsy is often seen as a pejorative term. But as a result of this thread I’ve looked at a number of sites and articles, trying to find ones that are Romany organisations for accuracy - and I find Gypsy used time and again. The Gypsy Council U.K., for example.

If Gypsy on the census form (after consultation with community groups) is separated from Roma and Irish Travellers, then who are the Gypsies if they are not British Romany? Is this - genuine question - not a case that you do not like being called Gypsy, but other British Romanis use it?

I'm neither Roma nor Romany but there was no place for me either. We got the short form census. The long form had more options and even a write in your own, but we didn't.

We can put Romany down but chances are it will be the emphisis on the word gypsy that is assumed.

Can you explain what that means please?

"I didn't either, @Cabinfever10 and I used to work with gipsy and traveller families.

Been on training courses and everything and I had no idea. "

OP has agreed herself that they are part of the same ethnic group originally. I think her issues are more to do with current needs of both groups being different.

"There is the “other” option where you can put all the detail you like. That’s been said here by many people."

I get why this is not the same thing. It means some Romany won't use it, people will answer differently and the numbers won't be correct.

@Bunnyfuller

And again, WHAT NEEDS?

The rights of travellers are being curtailed because of the mess, rubbish and human faeces that are left when they move on from a pitch. It costs each local authority a bomb. There are often stop off in between licences pitches, and the result is the same.

Littering the countryside and leaving unsanitary waste is not ‘culture’.

I’m still waiting to hear what the ‘needs’ are that are so different that no other ethnic category will fit (I’m Irish American British, my kids the same plus Russian plus Georgian and Ukrainian).

Please tell me who "they" are? So you think that two races should be held accountable for the wrong doings of other individuals. Holiday makers (not travellers) left the beaches in an awful state last year and some beautiful spots in Scotland. Should all holiday makers be stopped from using the beach or visiting Scotland. Wow.

@Devlesko actually, that’s exactly what’s happening: long established wild camping spots throughout the U.K. are being designated as no overnight camping, because of the actions of some people. The beaches - and Scotland as a country - are not being closed outright, but more and more are having height restricted car parks, and new signs going up, and areas patrolled and fined. All as a result of a minority that ballooned during lockdown.

I’m an avid user of my camper van, and will be affected by this - having only ever “left footprints”.

It is perfectly fair to set policies based on the behaviour of minorities, if the impact of that minority behaviour is severe enough.

The difference for you, is that people don’t look at me and assume that I am part the problem. Whereas you as a traveller will be racially slurred as behaving in the same way as the travellers who do leave the mess.

Yabu I swear I put mixed other, didn't feel the need to start a thread about it.

When I was a baby my mother invited into our house in a snowstorm a woman with a very young baby, who was freezing as she went from door to door trying to sell -- I think probably clothes-pegs. The result was that when she came through our town on the round her family did (hops in Kent, picking soft fruit somewhere else, apples for two or three farms in the autumn, and so on) she would come to see us, and since her son and I were the same age she would laugh that one day she would steal me away... I longed to go! I am reasonably sure she was Romany, and I will never forget once her sitting in the kitchen having tea with my mother and explaining that they (the authorities, understood) wanted her and her family to take a council house and stop travelling, but she couldn't. She needed to see trees from her window to be able to breathe, and different trees at different times, so she'd shrivel up in a council estate with maybe a bit of grass but nothing growing wild for her to rest her eyes on. We kept a mug for only her to use, and she washed it before the tea was poured, every single time. My mother taught her son to read one year, because she said they were never in one place for long enough for him to get proper schooling, and someone needed to be able to read the forms.

One of the results of that friendship was that our local council got several earfuls from my mother over a few years, and for quite a while we had one of the few councils that provided good resting places for the Romany, with running water at them. Gone now; there is housing over that patch of open ground with hedges round it.

She was not very polite about tinkers, which was what she called non-Romany travellers; she said they were dirty and got anyone who didn't live in a house a bad name. So I suppose I grew up knowing that not everyone with a van is the same as every other person with a van.