AIBU to wonder why men are so angry

[Moanranger]

Having read a Marina Hyde column in the Guardian about being followed & harassed by an angry man, plus my own recent experience with anger from a male stranger, I am asking this.
Where does this male anger come from? Drugs/meth? Steroid use? Just what?
My own recent experience was a road rage incident. I honked my horn at some boy racer (car with spoilers, low slung) speeding on my narrow, windy, busy lane. He screeches to a halt, jumps out of his car, then turns car around & follows me back to my drive, jumps out again & shouts “I know where you live, c**t”
Such anger over nothing, but v similar to Marina’s incident. This is a key issue, huge problem with male rage & toxic masculinity.

@LucieStar

I think men being told from an early age to “ keep a lid on it” and “ only babies cry” etc means they literally don’t go through the normal cycle of emotions for heartbreak, sadness, rejection etc because they are taught by their parents it’s not what boys do.

Yes. This. So much.

Hard on the outside. So it’s only a very thin shell and everything comes out as anger or depression because that the only emotion they have learnt to process.

My Dd and nephew are the same age. (Born within 2 weeks of each other)
The difference between when Dd falls over or hurts herself (lots of cuddles) and he does has always been stark.

My “get up that didn’t hurt” when my FiL flew off the back of the treadmill was met with horrified looks but they had all said it to a 2 year old boy who had stacked it in grazing his face and knees in the driveway 10 minutes before.

I’ve been thinking about my experience of men over the years. I’ve been overtly harassed and even stalked in my teens, 20s, 30s . I’ve been coerced in to difficult situations by pushy males. I’ve been pushed, shoved, hit in nightclubs by drunk angry men. I’ve been catcalled, abused verbally and made deeply uncomfortable in numerous professional scenarios by men. This was over decades and I think probably just accepting this behaviour and absorbing it as “ boys will be boys” or “ that’s what men are like” has not been good for my self esteem. I feel a lot of anger now when I think of the young girl I was meekly accepting some me of the shit I put up with.

*My Dd and nephew are the same age. (Born within 2 weeks of each other)
The difference between when Dd falls over or hurts herself (lots of cuddles) and he does has always been stark.
*
Exactly - the difference in what is generally said to a little girl when she hurts herself compared to a boy is often stark. A little girl gets "oh my goodness, are you ok? Did they hurt? Come here, let me kiss it better, poor thing". Etc etc. She learns that her tears and upset are valid because she's hurt. Little boys (generally and I accept obviously not always), usually get "up you get, come on, brush it off. You're ok". They may be feeling pain, but it's not validated by an adult. What do they learn over time? Just push it away when I experience pain. The problem becomes worse when they apply that logic to emotional as well as physical pain. Over time, suppressed pain becomes anger...

I mean, it's one part of the picture. But my experience (professionally) over the years have taught me it's a key one.

Just to add - suppressed emotional pain can go one of two ways, in my experience. Angry outbursts or depression and low mood. This explains the two commonly seen behavioural reactions to underlying emotions by men - lash out aggressively, or retreat and become depressed (the latter at its worst explaining higher suicide rates among men).

I've been wondering this too. In the last few weeks I've been shouted at by various strange men for:

• not moving out of the way to his satisfaction (3m wide pavement, loads of space)
• letting my dog lick the pavement - according to shouty man I should be HITTING my dog
• screamed at for wearing a mask incl much misogynist language

So, catcalled by men until middle-age, then seen as an outlet for anger. We are seen as support humans indeed.

And my parents didn't allow me to have emotions, so anger is the most easily accessible one for me. I turned it inwards tho, probably because I'm female?

The pp who said about raising boys to talk, hug, cry, is absolutely spot on.

I also felt somewhat responsible for not making these men feel foolish and further infuriating them through rejection or talking back . Putting their comfort above my own. So if a builder catcalled for example I’d keep my head down and not shout something back. If I got harassed I’d be really polite and meek. Adds fuel to their self belief that we are there to serve them (men).

This thread has also made me think of women's experiences of men becoming aggressive when their advances are turned down (which I hadn't thought about before).

Some of the time, I absolutely accept that this anger will come from a place of narcissistic entitlement and nothing more - "how dare she not want me, the fucking bitch" etc.

For some men though, it's possibly a defence mechanism against feelings of embarrassment and rejection, which they just don't know how to deal with. So it becomes an outward burst of anger at the woman instead as the rejection is too intolerable and they don't know what to do with it - "didn't want you anyway, fuck off" etc.

Both equally disgusting behavioural responses, but different underlying psychology.

Men really need to learn and be validated for a range of emotions as kids, in order to tackle the second scenario. Tackling the first - the narcissistic entitlement anger - that's far trickier IMO.

I read Marina Hyde's piece too, it was chilling how angry this fella was towards her. No provocation at all. I did wonder how tall Marina was because a number of women i've known who've been under 5ft 5, blonde and slim had experienced the angry, dominant male spewing bile at them. The self entitlement, the need to threaten and dominate, the lack of reasoning, lack of self reflection was all part of it. Is this an attempt at 'being a man'?

And my parents didn't allow me to have emotions, so anger is the most easily accessible one for me. I turned it inwards tho, probably because I'm female?

Yes i had this too both when growing up and in relationships. Crying, anger, unhappiness, no loud noises etc. No 'brattish' behaviour allowed. No direct comms in case you're seen as difficult, be deferential. Nice happy smile. Be the pretty girly with the nice smile and nice manners.

@GetLost

I read Marina Hyde's piece too, it was chilling how angry this fella was towards her. No provocation at all. I did wonder how tall Marina was because a number of women i've known who've been under 5ft 5, blonde and slim had experienced the angry, dominant male spewing bile at them. The self entitlement, the need to threaten and dominate, the lack of reasoning, lack of self reflection was all part of it. Is this an attempt at 'being a man'?

I don't know if it is a man issue alone. A few years ago I had a similar experience with a woman on a tube carriage, who actually invited me to get of the train and have a fight (amongst other things).

She too was also threatening, attempted to dominate, unreasonable, and tried to dominate. It was however a masculine style of aggression to try on another woman.

And please do not interpret that as saying that women are as bad as men! It was so odd that I didn't take it seriously - had it been a man then I would have a different view because of his physical capacity to hurt me.

@Amdone123

The pp who said about raising boys to talk, hug, cry, is absolutely spot on.

I agree, but ideally this would not just be the mothers that do this. The problem with just the mum being the person that the boy can cry to, the only one they can show they are upset, is that it can reinforce the idea that women are there to deal with mens emotions for them. You see it all the time in grown men who will be macho around their colleagues, friends etc but cry on their girlfriends shoulder (or be angry/moody and expect their partner to interpret what they are actually feeling and tell them). Of course that is much better than nothing, but it means that if they dont have a girlfriend/break up with their girlfriend, they have no-one there to process that emotion for them. And that often is a feature of men's anger - blaming women for not helping them through their sadness enough.

I am a single parent so obviously I am the main person providing emotional support etc. Its not that I am saying mothers shouldn't - its really important for children to feel cared for and validated. But really, fathers and other male relatives need to be there to provide that emotional support as well. And sometimes lead by example in showing emotion and responding empathetically to others.

@apalledandshocked
Spot on. Fathers have a crucial role.

In the past month, I've seen two fathers yelling at their sons to "stop crying/squealing like a girl."
Yeah, man, far better your son lashes out when he's scared or hurt or upset. Definitely don't want him expressing negative emotions like women do, in a way that doesn't result in other people getting thumped or verbally abused.

One incident sticks in my mind. Years ago I was walking down a busy main road with my two young sons. The cars were stopped at traffic lights and as we walked past them, a man of approximately 35 leaned out his car window and shouted/roared at my sons. Obviously, it made them jump and the man sat back in his seat laughing with his freind. It plays on my mind because I thought what kind of grown man wants to intimidate a women and her small children?

Another incident recently, I was walking up a path and a large man walks towards me staring at me. There was plenty of room for us to pass but he decided to walk straight towards me, staring at me and forcing me off the path. Why? Why me? I am short, small and just about the least intimidating person ever.

I could go on, which is depressing in itself.

@Collidascope

In the past month, I've seen two fathers yelling at their sons to "stop crying/squealing like a girl." Yeah, man, far better your son lashes out when he's scared or hurt or upset. Definitely don't want him expressing negative emotions like women do, in a way that doesn't result in other people getting thumped or verbally abused.

This upsets me. Those poor boys. It's no wonder we have so many angry grown men on our hands!

It starts from birth, the majority of parents treat their children differently from day one depending if they are a girl or a boy, as do caregivers.

A significant number of parents teach their boys not to show perfectly normal and healthy emotions and encourage negative ways to express emotion like shouting, hitting etc. Look at the idiot that is Ant Middleton, he actively punishes his son when he cries.

You see posters on MN berating men for showing completely normal emotions, idiots posters say a man crying wouldn’t be attractive, would give them the ick etc. Imagine having such a warped view that you would no longer find your partner attractive because they cried.

This isn’t just a problem of dads teaching their sons to repress healthy emotions, mums are doing it, as are partners, colleagues, friends etc do it as well.

Boys are ‘boistrous’ no they’re not, their parents are allowing praising poor behaviour. Girls are ‘quiet and sweet’ no, they’re taught to sit quietly and not get in the way and to not make a fuss.

If you praise a son for being physically violent in play you’re training him to be violent.

If a primary school allows boys to take over the playground they turn into adults who ‘own’ the spaces they’re in.

@LexMitior How strange?! Granted there are threatening/aggressive women around but there's usually a social context or there's a few of them looking to create trouble for a reason. A lone female aggressor is very unusual. I'd probably react the same way and not take it too seriously. Lone females just don't seem very threatening.

[quote GetLost]@LexMitior How strange?! Granted there are threatening/aggressive women around but there's usually a social context or there's a few of them looking to create trouble for a reason. A lone female aggressor is very unusual. I'd probably react the same way and not take it too seriously. Lone females just don't seem very threatening.[/quote]
It was odd and she had a friend with her!

They were just sweary and I asked them to stop as there were young children. Then she erupted!

I think she must have done it a lot! She seemed confused when I didn’t give the expected response of giving it back or pushing her. But physically not a threat really

This article has some interesting perspectives on the issue too
www.theguardian.com/society/2021/mar/17/the-time-for-men-to-step-up-is-right-now-what-all-men-can-do-to-help-end-violence-against-women

Definitely entitlement. I still remember the driver of a white van shouting and swearing at me for going the speed limit (we were sat at a traffic light and he had moved to the right lane).
We'd had a long drive and my husband had reclined his seat to get some rest. When he heard this guy call me a 'fucking cunt' my husband shot up. And he's a big guy with a shaved head. Van driver absolutely crapped his pants. Must admit to feeling pleased but also sad that it took my husband for him to shut up.

Are you an if/fpit/psych @LucieStar?

@Ohdobequiet

Are you an if/fpit/psych *@LucieStar*?

Outing! (Oops)
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