aibu to think we should campaign for a WLM group in light of recent events ?

[warmandtoasty2day]

just that really, women seem to be a minority in many ways. recent events have bought it to ahead that we won't put up and shut up for anyone. our voices need to be heard as womens lives matter too !

I don't understand why people are complaining about people making this thread about race. How could this thread not be about race?

Given the explosive politics about what counts as a woman and what does not, the chances of WLM becoming anything other than a place for having blazing arguments seem remote.

@Dyrne - I'm not chastising anyone, or censoring anyone, I'm giving my opinion, with specific examples, on a thread about violence against women. As everyone else can. Im a woman. I'm just replying a lot because people keep replying directly to me. I do think the title/ OP was goady actually, maybe it was posted in bad faith, but I'm not sure what is offensive about my posts.

The point someone made about do white feminists undertake causes that are specifically black has really made me think tbh. There are issues in secondary education which I think are really important, which I do talk about at work (in education but different sector) but haven't taken further as I don't feel particularly able to affect change myself. I will try and be more proactive now though.

@VladmirsPoutine

But the issue within WLM - I'm using your term OP because I fundamentally don't agree with co-oping BLM - is that a lot of white women can't see further than themselves. Intersectionality means fuck all to them. That's in part why this tragic death has mobilised so many people because a lot of white women see themselves in her image; their daughters, sisters, friends etc. Also a lot of them expressing shock at police brutality - which is akin to being shocked that 2+2=4.

My thoughts exactly 👏 this is how I feel about this whole situation. Something that BLM has been shouting about for years now, most white women are only seeing because it's happened to a white woman. Such tragic circumstances.

@VladmirsPoutine

And frankly sorry to sound so crass but there really is something laughable if not bittersweet that so many white women are now decrying the police and subsequently police brutality. They are honestly shocked that the police can behave in such a manner. For a lot of us it's like asking if the pope is catholic

Welcome!!! Welcome to our world!

Couldn't have said it better myself 👏

there really is something laughable if not bittersweet that so many white women are now decrying the police and subsequently police brutality.

It would only take a small amount of research to realise this is simply not true.

WLM would be a terrible name for it. The only way I see it compares to BLM, is that BLM, as well as the obvious points it was designed to address, has called out all the unconscious, underlying, systemic racism which facilitate the more overt incidents. It’s refreshing to see people discussing the similar themes around misogyny so openly. Otherwise the two are entirely different.

I’d love to see some serious ongoing discussion though. Just dear god, not with that name.

As all lives matter - which does not imply racism , we need to safety for all sections of society. Vilifying the police is not going to help, the vast majority of police are honest, non racist and trying their best to serve the community. The police like any public sector are strictly controlled - but like any sector there will sadly be people who don't follow the code of conduct. A police officer is allowed to have views on private as are teachers for example but their actions need to be beyond reproach. I am not refereeing to the most recent incidents but talking on general terms as I don't think we know enough information to make an informed judgement

This is about so much more than police failings

@VladmirsPoutine

And frankly sorry to sound so crass but there really is something laughable if not bittersweet that so many white women are now decrying the police and subsequently police brutality. They are honestly shocked that the police can behave in such a manner. For a lot of us it's like asking if the pope is catholic

Welcome!!! Welcome to our world!

To be absolutely fair - I think part of the reason the outrage has spread so far is because people were already talking about police brutality because of the Black Lives Matter movement and the protests in 2020. It fed into broader public concousness (more so than previous movements, I am sure it was already something you were very aware of) and maybe explains why there has been a larger outcry at her death. Of course, not everyone was, and some people were denying it, and some people will be directly trying to co-opt BLM which isnt right. But for some people, there has been more awareness over the past year. I mean yeah its late, but better late than never?

I do agree that WLM is not a good slogan for this though!

Plus, everyone has for the past year, spent a lot more time inside/a lot less time socialising with friends and family and therefore had a lot of time to think. That is almost guaranteed to lead to social unrest - it just needs a spark

I have all kinds of issues with the title WLM.
Some have been mentioned by other posters.
I am not going to get into it at the moment, but I find it annoying AF

Zevia

YouGov sounds very official and credible but it is a public limited company traded on the stock market and has nothing to do with government. If you click on the link to the survey you will see it's a YouGov/Pink News survey which means Pink News almost certainly paid for it. Pink News have a very clear bias on the issue of self ID as does the Independent. Much more credible sources do not support the claim you make.

To quote Mark Twain, "there are lies, damn lies and statistics", he also said, "if you don't read the news you will be uniformed, if you read the news you will be misinformed".

Dyrne and Zevia

Hear hear to all of your comments. Undeniable truths.

Just googled ‘women killed in in 2020’ and 70% of the results on the first page were about trans women.

@SharonasCorona

Just googled ‘women killed in in 2020’ and 70% of the results on the first page were about trans women.

Not saying your concerns arent valid. But, can I ask if you are already interested in/reading articles about trans rights generally? Because if so, that will have skewed your results. Google tracks pretty much everything you look at and its algorithims then mean it shows the results it thinks you will find "useful". So a beauty technician who spends a lot of time looking at nail art on instagram will get very different results if she types in "nail display" to Steve, the builder. I dont get results about trans women killed when I google the same thing.

@apalledandshocked no I don’t think I’ve ever googled trans women!

First page of results

White women seriously need to stop saying things like 'don't make it about race'

Do you not understand that this is the epitome of white privilege -- the fact that you can go through life without having to think about race? Because your race is the default setting for society.

This is why so many black women have given up on mainstream feminism, because when they try to raise important issues they get told 'it's not about race'. Just because it's not about race for white women

@apalledandshocked I get exactly the same results and like the PP, am not in the habit of Googling trans issues.

More than likely some Google bombing has taken place. Remember when typing "Miserable failure" in brought up results about George Bush?

Contrast with the results from Yahoo

People seem to think that if you're a feminist or support women's equality, you're automatically progressive or pure of heart. But it's not true. For example, the British Union of Fascists had a significant suffragette membership. They were attracted by the BUF's positions on women's equality, and apparently didn't care about all the fascism, racism, colonialism etc.

It's possible to be a feminist and a racist. Or to be a feminist and a non-ally. If you really want the most powerful and effective women's movement of all time, it needs to be the most inclusive movement of all time.

[quote SharonasCorona]@apalledandshocked no I don’t think I’ve ever googled trans women![/quote]
It doesnt matter if you have googled them or not. If you have been reading online articles, posting on threads about the issue here etc etc google will be tracking that. In a much more benign way I made the msitake of clicking the link to an attrocious coat posted in style and beauty and the side bar adverts started showing me the coat - not just on mumsnet, it followed me through the internet. Aaaargh

Again, I am not saying you shouldnt be concerned about the issue of trans-rights overshadowing broader womens issues. But the way the internet is designed means if you are not careful you can easily get sucked into a vortex of despair.

Anyway, sorry for the thread derail!

@dreamingbohemian

People seem to think that if you're a feminist or support women's equality, you're automatically progressive or pure of heart. But it's not true. For example, the British Union of Fascists had a significant suffragette membership. They were attracted by the BUF's positions on women's equality, and apparently didn't care about all the fascism, racism, colonialism etc.

It's possible to be a feminist and a racist. Or to be a feminist and a non-ally. If you really want the most powerful and effective women's movement of all time, it needs to be the most inclusive movement of all time.

Absolutely, in fact I think one of the reasons feminism has made less progress than it should have done is that historically it has been limited in its scope. Just because a woman does it, doesnt mean its feminist. A woman pulling herself up is not feminist if its done at the expense of other women.

Agree that wlm is not appropriate.

Emv - end make violence - might work? but could be too much.

Exactly @apalledandshocked

Even now, with this big groundswell of support for women's rights, you see people saying 'don't make it about race' or 'only "real" women allowed'. It's so depressing.