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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

aibu to think we should campaign for a WLM group in light of recent events ?

174 replies

warmandtoasty2day · 14/03/2021 13:51

just that really, women seem to be a minority in many ways. recent events have bought it to ahead that we won't put up and shut up for anyone. our voices need to be heard as womens lives matter too !

OP posts:
AlexaShutUp · 14/03/2021 18:47

Of course it isn't solely in response to Sarah's murder. I don't think anyone actually thinks that, any more than anyone thought that BLM was just about George Floyd. Sarah's murder was a catalyst, that's all. But it's still interesting to consider why Sarah's murder acted as the catalyst rather than any of the other murders that have gone before. I suspect that both race and class are factors in that.

SenecaTrewe · 14/03/2021 18:53

No way will we be allowed to have Women's Lives Matter. It will have to be Women's and Non-binary and Transwomen and Non-men's Lives Matter.

Whammyyammy · 14/03/2021 18:53

@twelly

all live matter - I don't agree with BLM or WLM - everyone is important. We live in a diverse society where everyone is important.
Totally agree, all and every life on earth matters. But saying all lives matter in MN ..... get your tin hat.
Whammyyammy · 14/03/2021 18:54

@SenecaTrewe

No way will we be allowed to have Women's Lives Matter. It will have to be Women's and Non-binary and Transwomen and Non-men's Lives Matter.
And what about the other 46 genders....
OppsUpsSide · 14/03/2021 18:56

Theorise away if it pleases you. But, this is a real issue that affects all women and it needs to be acknowledged and fought. Personally, I am not prepared to be quiet anymore through fear of what accusations or consequences I might face. The police failed me massively last summer, they failed consistently when I worked for them and they continue to fail now when I work with them. This country is institutionally racist and misogynistic.

Dutch1e · 14/03/2021 18:58

I suspect you are actually rather pleased. And using your black privilege to say things that a white woman would not be allowed to say.

Black privilege, ffs. What ridiculousness are you spouting?

tellmetologoffIamaMNaddict · 14/03/2021 18:59

@EmpressWitchDoesntBurn

The problem is that it would instantly get co-opted by all the transactivist groups & forced to focus on ‘anyone who says they’re a woman or nonbinary’.
Yes this. No point doing this unless there is a shared understanding of what a woman is. There are many issues with self ID but perhaps the biggest is that it prevents us from organising effectively.
Zevia · 14/03/2021 19:04

I wish mumsnet would crack down on these 'All Lives Matter' posts. We get it, you're a proud racist, now bore off.

Charley1984 · 14/03/2021 19:08

The problem with phases like ‘woman lives matter’ is it takes away the importance of ‘black lives matter’ and the 8 years that went into building the blm movement in to what it is today (and ignores forms of misogyny that black women fact that non-black women don’t) Instead we should find a different slogan that can be used to spread resources on and offline and be used as a way to spread awareness and show support.

Whammyyammy · 14/03/2021 19:08

@Zevia

I wish mumsnet would crack down on these 'All Lives Matter' posts. We get it, you're a proud racist, now bore off.
How can thinking that everyone's life matters be interpreted as racist?
Whammyyammy · 14/03/2021 19:10

@Charley1984

The problem with phases like ‘woman lives matter’ is it takes away the importance of ‘black lives matter’ and the 8 years that went into building the blm movement in to what it is today (and ignores forms of misogyny that black women fact that non-black women don’t) Instead we should find a different slogan that can be used to spread resources on and offline and be used as a way to spread awareness and show support.
Now this makes some sense to me. Maybe use a different name to represent, so as not to piggy back off the work put into blm.
Zevia · 14/03/2021 19:18

How can thinking that everyone's life matters be interpreted as racist?
On the slim chance you're being sincere.

Do you the suffragettes were wrong to campaign for women's right to vote, because they should have campaigned for every adult to have the right to vote (given that men already had the right, and women didnt)?

Do you think people saying, in response to the suffragettes movement "Oh I disagree that women should have the right to vote because everyone should have the right to vote" would have been arguing in good faith?

It is just so fucking ridiculous that when a marginalized or victimized group asks to be treated the same as the privileged group (be it black people asking to have their lives treated as equal to white people, or women asking to be treated as equals to men), that people respond 'but I think the privileged group should have equality with themselves too'.

JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows · 14/03/2021 19:19

I'm in

partyatthepalace · 14/03/2021 19:28

@VladmirsPoutine

There's absolutely no need to co-opt the BLM movement in doing this. YABU.
This. Just no.
Babygotblueyes · 14/03/2021 19:30

Does anybody remember 'Take back the night' marches? I think we were having them when I was at uni 30 years ago, so not much has changed there. I hope though that the conversation will be more meaningful than it has been in the past.

Charley50 · 14/03/2021 19:31

Of course it shouldn't be called women's lives matter, that would be incredibly disrespectful.

But please, white women don't fare too well at the hands of the police. Rapes convictions are at an all time low, rape victims of all colours still have their privacy and dignity violated by police and courts (mobile phone messages scrutinised, clothes scrutinised) Rotherham etc. 100s of white girls were failed by police over decades, there have been many cases of women (white and black) being coerced and sexually abused by police who were supposed to help them when they were vulnerable. Police are notorious for not talking stalking, strangling, and abuse by men on women seriously. Natalie Connolly was brutally murdered by her partner, and her murderer got less than two years for manslaughter. This hasn't been high-profile or caused the backlash I think it should have. She was white.

Many white people stood in solidarity with black people over last summer's BLM protests.

Women are currently being harassed by police for stating that women are adult human females.

Men are being placed in women's prisons, as its thought men's feelings are more important than women's safety. Women are fighting this in the courts.

Sarah Everard going missing, then being found murdered was a catalyst for the vigils because of all of the above. Yes, she was pretty and blonde, but at another time her murder would not have triggered this response.

Yes, sadly it is less likely that a black woman's murder in the same situation, last week, would have led to this amount of action. But maybe it would have. Twitter can cause a lot of things to happen right now. A few tweets can take on a life of their own.

Everything is becoming so divisive. It's sad. I do agree it was a bit of a goady OP. I also think women of all colours are very oppressed in this society to a greater or lesser extent, and are all let down by the police and legal system, to a greater or lesser extent.

DeeCeeCherry · 14/03/2021 19:33

There are some uncomfortable truths in this thread.

It's about time.

We are all endangered by male violence. I've no time to say 'not all men'.

As Muhammed Ali said: if you were ok with snakes, then someone told you to put your hand in a snakepit and said 'oh it's fine you'll be ok, they don't ALL bite - What would you do?

But deep down I can't help feeling the full cavalry of misogyny, mysogynoir, not all men, misandry, will roll out to trample women.

The question is - Is there the strength to stand against all that?

& Women I've seen speaking out strongly against certain injustices, after years of being sidelined and unheard and despite continuous derogatory commentary against them - are not White.

So at the risk of being deemed aggressive, bolshy, not the right type of meek mild placid woman, not playing the part, then it's time for White women's voices too.

All Women.

Zevia · 14/03/2021 19:42

then it's time for White women's voices too.
Because this time, it affects us.

Truly inspiring stuff.

DeeCeeCherry · 14/03/2021 19:51

Zevia
then it's time for White women's voices too
Because this time, it affects us.*

Yes. It's about that unfortunately.

'this time' should be 'all the time'.

Remains to be seen if it will

Can but try.

Charley50 · 14/03/2021 19:51

@DeeCeeCherry - I agree we should all be doing something.

Can I suggest that you notice more the black women that are fighting the cause, because you're black yourself, so they're more on your radar?

White women are too. Harriet Wistrich, for example, succeeded at getting coercive control legally recognised. This helps all abused women.
There are white, and I'm sure black women too, in law fighting for laws about non-fatal strangulation, and banning the rough-sex defence. These changes in legislation are to protect all women.

We should all be on each other's side.

Dutch1e · 14/03/2021 19:59

Sure, we should all be on each other's side but until we white women roll back a few centuries of hurting and profiting from Black women and women of colour it's a non-starter. We're simply not to be trusted so we can fight this particular fight but we have to do it as the stand-alone social class of white women. Or, you know, support the women who have already been doing it for a couple of hundred years.

Zevia · 14/03/2021 20:06

So I'm in Canada and here its Indigenous Women that are 12 times more likely that any other group to be murdered or kidnapped. The police do next to nothing and few outside of First Nations communities seem to care.

If a movement of this type, with large-scale white interest, was inspired after a woman of colour being murdered, it would be easier to have some sort of a sense of enthusiasm about it- but its hard to shake the sense that a lot of white women only really care when a victim is white.

VodkaSlimline · 14/03/2021 20:10

YANBU but can we call it Female Loves Matter so that it doesn't include trans-identifying males? Since we apparently don't own the word "Women" any more...

SharonasCorona · 14/03/2021 20:13

I’m reminded of Banaz Mahmoud, who was dismissed as a fantasist by a policewoman when she made a complaint about her father and family trying to kill her. The 4 previous times she made complaints were not followed up either.

The policewoman was supposed to receive a disciplinary hearing but was promoted instead Hmm. As a British Asian Muslim who also emigrated to the UK as a child, her murder hit me hard, and so has Sarah Everard’s. I’m now reading about some of the women killed in London over the past year, and some of them lived very near me. It’s sad that these deaths didn’t get much coverage, every killing of a woman feels personal.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.mylondon.news/news/local-news/names-faces-24-women-who-20093764.amp

Zevia · 14/03/2021 20:19

@VodkaSlimline
It's worth remembering that significantly more women in the UK support self-ID than oppose it (YouGov poll below) so making the movement trans-exclusionary will likely make it a non-starter.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-women-support-self-identification-transgender-people-boris-johnson-gra-a9616136.html