aibu to think we should campaign for a WLM group in light of recent events ?

[warmandtoasty2day]

just that really, women seem to be a minority in many ways. recent events have bought it to ahead that we won't put up and shut up for anyone. our voices need to be heard as womens lives matter too !

Charley50
@DeeCeeCherry - I agree we should all be doing something

Can I suggest that you notice more the black women that are fighting the cause, because you're black yourself, so they're more on your radar?

Yes, I do notice them more for that reason.

& Because for years Black Women's voices have been silenced. Racist and sexist microaggressions par for the course. We are always criticised, marginalised, called aggressive for daring to speak up, presented in sexualised fashion. The list could go on.

In 2021 - I was still taken aback to actually see 3 Black Women on screen speaking on the H&M debacle.

But it's a double-edged sword because I was entirely un-surprised that 3 monoracial Darkskinned Black Women were given a voice where it's easy to give them the usual shouty aggressive tag (The Sapphire Trope) and dismiss what they're saying.

The rest is as Dutch1e has set out above.

I feel it for Sarah. Angry and upset. I still know very well if she were Black, it wouldn't be widespread abhorrence and indignation.

All the Black Women who've been murdered unjustly and no-one brought to task.

But it doesn't mean she's not on my radar because she wasn't Black.

@VladmirsPoutine I hear you. Completely agree with what you have said on this thread.

I cannot believe someone’s just accused you of having “black privilege” over white women.

[quote Zevia]@VodkaSlimline
It's worth remembering that significantly more women in the UK support self-ID than oppose it (YouGov poll below) so making the movement trans-exclusionary will likely make it a non-starter.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-women-support-self-identification-transgender-people-boris-johnson-gra-a9616136.html[/quote]

Do you think vulnerable women in prison want males in with them? Do you think girls and women who train for years at a sport want their space on the podium taken by a male? Do you think observant Muslim women who swim only at women-only swimming sessions want males swimming with them?

@Charley50 I wonder if the YouGov pollers asked those questions. I somehow doubt it.

Charley50

Meant to say I agree with your previous post about women not faring well at hands if the police.

I don't know why it's always stuck in my mind and I can't recall her name - but the White woman who was taken to the police station, slapped hard in the face. Then the officer grabbed her hair slammed her head several times into the wall, threw her to the floor and kicked her. A shocking watch.

I wasn't in UK at that time. But I'm now thinking - Was there a campaign for her? At all?

There's another Sarah. A Black Woman who miscarried her baby at full term and started to behave erratically (not violently).

She clearly needed help. Instead she was put in Holloway Prison. A man wrote a report recommending that her detention should stand. Her family were given excuses as to why they couldn't see her on visits.

She was put in solitary confinement, denied medication. Her family never saw her again. She died in prison. Surrounded by men (male warders)

For now that's 2 Sarah's whereby right now I can't bear to think of how men just took them away, then callously, mercilessly, took their lives.

@Charley50 I can see you mean well, but can’t you see that you’ve effectively read posts from black women speaking about how White Feminism can harm Black Women; and then said “but not all White feminists...”

The Original post specifically co-opted the BLM movement, the implication being easy to take as “move over Black people, someone important actually got hurt now”.

I can completely understand Black feminists stating that they have zero time for white women handwringing over something they’ve been already fighting for decades - and will be fighting for long after many will have moved into the next hashtag.

They're both shocking stories DeeCeeCherry. I'm not sure I immediately recall either of them. The vast majority of victims don't get a campaign about them. 3 women dead per week at the hands of a partner or ex.

Do you remember Victoria Climbie? She had a beautiful smiling face, shown over and over again in the media, just like Sarah Everard, but she was a little black girl. I can picture her face now. Her death was devastating, and it led to real changes (albeit unsuccessful when Baby P later died in the same borough) within the borough's social services departments, and (I think) led to nationwide safeguarding and social work changes. It's not true that all crimes against black people are deemed unimportant by white people. Please don't think that. Stephen Lawrence will never be forgotten.

@DeeCeeCherry

VladmirsPoutine There's absolutely no need to co-opt the BLM movement in doing this. YABU

Agreed.

It's so disingenuous.

If you really want a spotlight shone directly on Women's issues then be serious and encourage actively campaigning for it.

Whataboutery around BLM diverts and defeats the aim and conversation, and how exactly does that help?

If you actually care enough about women's rights then you'll be able to debate it singularly as the extremely important issue that it is.

Otherwise it just looks like stirring. Pointless. & It's not the time, particularly now.

I totally agree with this, why coopt BLM? There are numerous women's groups already doing work on this issue - End Violence Against Women is just one example. Join one of them.

Also, what on earth do you mean by wanting to "campaign for" a WLM group? If people want to address an issue they start their own group, not campaign for someone else to set one up. Rape Crisis, Women's Aid, BLM etc. all started as grassroots movements, by people working hard on a cause they were passionate about, wanting to make a difference. Why should others do the heavy lifting for you?

@Dyrne - I completely agree that the idea of calling something All women matter is completely distasteful.

I disagree that white women haven't been doing feminism though. I also disagree that white feminists only do feminism for white women, as a lot of activism is about changing laws that affect all women in the UK.

I disagree that white women haven't been doing feminism though. I also disagree that white feminists only do feminism for white women, as a lot of activism is about changing laws that affect all women in the UK.
But would they bother with the activism if it was only women of colour being affected? I.e. is it basically just a happy byproduct that women of colour may benefit from some of this activism to?

Kind of like this thread really. Sure a 'WLM' movement might result in positive changes for women regardless of race, but let's not pretend half as many white women would get involved in making that change if white women didnt feel that they needed it for themselves.

@Charley50 nobody is saying that all White feminists only campaign for white women. Just as when we talk about Male violence about women we don’t mean all men are violent towards women.

But I do think there’s an important conversation to be had about how it took the death of a white middle class woman to spark outrage. And that conversation should be allowed to take place without others coming in saying “but not all white feminists are like that!”

I don't know Zevia. Victoria Climbie was a little black girl whose death led to changes in how social work was done in the whole of the UK I believe. She is talked about on Social work courses. I would have to do some research to see who led the changes (and what colour the people were), but I do remember there being a lot of general and media outrage that this beautiful little girl had been abused and died, and that social services, and other authorities hadn't prevented it.

When I talk about men in women's spaces, I am very mindful to talk about the impact on observant Muslim women and girls; e.g. males in female-only swimming sessions, the possibility of male-bodies Brownie leaders. I'm not Muslim, I understand it's not all about me.

The BLM protests last summer had a lot of support from white people.

To me it's all just divide and rule. Some of us are all happily snaffling up identity politics and the white vs black divide. Not me.

[quote Zevia]@VodkaSlimline
It's worth remembering that significantly more women in the UK support self-ID than oppose it (YouGov poll below) so making the movement trans-exclusionary will likely make it a non-starter.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-women-support-self-identification-transgender-people-boris-johnson-gra-a9616136.html[/quote]
That poll was commissioned by Prick News... once they asked people the same questions again making it clearer that they referred to people who haven't had gender reassignment surgery, the answers looked different. It's at the end of the Yougov write-up. If you actually explain what self-ID is, most women don't think that a big hairy man with a cock can be female just through self-declaring as a woman and they don't want people like that to have access to our rights, protections and single-sex spaces.

To me it's all just divide and rule. Some of us are all happily snaffling up identity politics and the white vs black divide. Not me.
Which is basically what the "Not All Men" crowd are saying about the discussion on male violence.

No, all lives matter, don't understand the splitting it into groups, we all matter, don't we ?

@Zevia

To me it's all just divide and rule. Some of us are all happily snaffling up identity politics and the white vs black divide. Not me. Which is basically what the "Not All Men" crowd are saying about the discussion on male violence.

No it's not.
I think you are misunderstanding me. The vigil was about male on female violence. Yes the catalyst was the awful murder of a white woman, plus lots of other attacks on women; actual and in the legal system etc, that have been happening lately, and women have had enough. MANY other white women have been murdered and have not sparked off a vigil. I think it's pretty awful that a women has died and some people are making it about race actually.

@Flowers24

Unfortunately we don’t all matter. That’s what BLM tried to address.

For those saying we should get behind Reclaim The Streets more as they are more womancentric, they're not focused on females or sex based violence. They also centre transwomen and non binary people and have stated on Twitter they will be giving all donations to charities for women and women identifying people

I think it's pretty awful that a women has died and some people are making it about race actually.
When the thread title deliberately references Black Lives Matter, of course race is going to come into the discussion.

@Zevia

I think it's pretty awful that a women has died and some people are making it about race actually. When the thread title deliberately references Black Lives Matter, of course race is going to come into the discussion.

Yes, I've already said that it's a silly and disrespectful idea to call it that.

We do though, I dont need BLM to tell me that ?

We do though, I dont need BLM to tell me that?
Have you been working under the mistaken assumption that the BLM protests are targeted solely at you? Oops!

white women handwringing over something they’ve been already fighting for decades - and will be fighting for long after many will have moved into the next hashtag.

Sorry can you clarify what you mean by this? I’m not sure I have understood correctly.

Haven't read the whole thread but has anyone pointed out that WLM already stands for Women's Liberation Movement?

@Charley50 I’m not really sure what more people can say to you. The thread title prompted Black Women to speak up about their experience, and you’re now chastisising people for “making it about race”.

There are dozens of threads with important conversations going on about Male violence, female deaths, and how to take advantage of the current momentum to drive change.

Why can’t there also be one thread allowing Black feminists to defend themselves and vent frustration without being censured?