To think that most men do respect women

[katieloves]

I’m concerned about the vilification of men that we’re hearing a lot about. I know there’s some men who disrespect women and this absolutely needs to stop, but equally I’ve witnessed women being equally disrespectful to men. I’ve seen plenty of women feeling up men etc. on a night out and it being laughed off. If this was reversed it would be considered assault. It feels like all men are being accused of treating women badly and I just don’t see it.

Think about that
And don't forget that many women also watch all sort of porn.

I think the answer is that sexism really does work both ways
Absolutely!

*Oh dear I have some bad news for you"
The bad news is your belief that all young boys watch porn and rate the women. It's even sadder if you encourage your daughter's to believe it.

@WhenSheWasBad

Yes experienced this politely asked drunk business man to leave my friend and I alone as we were chatting and he was pissed. Turned on me and said I’m talking to your friend you are an ugly bitch etc etc his colleagues watched this unfold and finally dragged him away apologising and said he always does this when drunk. The. They all carried on their evening.

I am always surprised by how many employees suddenly become incompetent when they are pregnant
3xceptvtgey don't. Women, like men are fired from their job every day, but the moment one is pregnant, it's assumed to be due to that reason.

If most respect women and behave beautifully they should really have a word with the busy few that have left 97% of all women a victim of sexual harassment.

@WhenSheWasBad this is where there needs to be a huge change in the way of thinking, many men would not engage with their mate’s behaviour and would think that was sufficient. Or possibly apologise to the waitress. But they need to challenge that mate each and every time.

They need to challenge any practices/behaviour in the workplace.

Schools need to educate students that not only should they not engage in this behaviour but it needs to be challenged.

And there needs to be more consequences for this behaviour.

Women need to not accept this behaviour in the home. There needs to be more support for them.

Parents should pull up their adult sons if they see them use such behaviour in their relationships. Tell them to pull up that behaviour if they see their mates treat their partner disrespectfully

You've failed to read the room op.

A girl fondling a man in a bar is entirely different. It’s not right I agree. But he generally isn’t at risk of being raped or murdered by the girl in the bar. And that is the difference. As women because of our sex we are always at risk of being raped.

Schools do try to educate kids about this. But many teachers are female and many boys see us as just nags or 'feminazis'. If they already have little respect for women, another one telling them to modify their behaviour isn't going to work.

[quote ineedaholidaynow]@WhenSheWasBad this is where there needs to be a huge change in the way of thinking, many men would not engage with their mate’s behaviour and would think that was sufficient. Or possibly apologise to the waitress. But they need to challenge that mate each and every time.

They need to challenge any practices/behaviour in the workplace.

Schools need to educate students that not only should they not engage in this behaviour but it needs to be challenged.

And there needs to be more consequences for this behaviour.

Women need to not accept this behaviour in the home. There needs to be more support for them.

Parents should pull up their adult sons if they see them use such behaviour in their relationships. Tell them to pull up that behaviour if they see their mates treat their partner disrespectfully[/quote]
100% this.

So posters with the strongest views on porn, how often do you watch it to do your research? You clearly know your subject to have such a violent opinion on it.

Instead of making sneering insinuations because you’re feeling defensive, why not read some of the many, many articles available on the internet discussing the fact that mainstream pornography has become increasingly violent and abusive, and has proven links with sex trafficking?

If you’re so keen to defend porn as ok, that’s fine - there is pornography out there which isn’t as harmful (especially if your definition is wide enough to include sex scenes in films). But you can and must still acknowledge that a huge amount of it is harmful. You’re allowed to be nuanced about it. You’re allowed to say ‘lots of people watch porn and some of it isn’t harmful or misogynistic. But a great deal of it is, and that is the content we should be concerned about’.

I was just thinking about DH, who is about the least sexist man I have ever met.

And then I got to thinking about when his mate came round (another very evolved man), and I was thinking about how much mansplaining and talking over me there was. . . Love him to bits, respect him immensely, but I think perhaps I might need to point that out. Slippery slope and all that!

So posters with the strongest views on porn, how often do you watch it to do your research? You clearly know your subject to have such a violent opinion on it

How ridiculous to suggest that you can only have an opinion if you’ve watched it. I don’t need to watch a video of a woman being raped and abused to the point of serious injury to have an opinion, but as it happens, as someone who has prosecuted and defended multiple criminal cases involving material across the spectrum from “acceptable” porn to the worst images of sexual abuse I’ve seen enough to know that no one who watches that stuff can have any respect for women.

@TheMoth

Schools do try to educate kids about this. But many teachers are female and many boys see us as just nags or 'feminazis'. If they already have little respect for women, another one telling them to modify their behaviour isn't going to work.

Yes. Then try dealing with it at parental level. Defensive dad and deluded mother who often still think their boy is six somehow.

I think ideally schools should actually have a hard line about language, sexual comments. It should get you suspended and thereafter expelled.

I mean, this used to happen. Now schools do not do this, and really, it says to girls, put up with it.

We live in a country where 1 in 3 women will face domestic abuse. Where 2 women a week are killed by their current or former partner.

Over the last year women's careers have been disproportionately disadvantaged due to the pandemic- women have had to take on most of the childcare and homeschooling.

Many women with children face a 'motherhood penalty' when it comes to pay and career progression opportunities

97% of women say the have experienced sexual harassment

I could go on........

If men (as a group) had respect for women we wouldn't be dealing with types of issues.

@Carolina24

So posters with the strongest views on porn, how often do you watch it to do your research? You clearly know your subject to have such a violent opinion on it.

Instead of making sneering insinuations because you’re feeling defensive, why not read some of the many, many articles available on the internet discussing the fact that mainstream pornography has become increasingly violent and abusive, and has proven links with sex trafficking?

If you’re so keen to defend porn as ok, that’s fine - there is pornography out there which isn’t as harmful (especially if your definition is wide enough to include sex scenes in films). But you can and must still acknowledge that a huge amount of it is harmful. You’re allowed to be nuanced about it. You’re allowed to say ‘lots of people watch porn and some of it isn’t harmful or misogynistic. But a great deal of it is, and that is the content we should be concerned about’.

I am not feeling defensive Carolina24, I am laughing at the stupidity and weakness of your arguments

I am not defending porn at all, I am merely pointing out that it's not a "male" hobbie. It doesn't mean it's one of mine.

But I get your point: porn = bad = men
Tastesful graphic sexual scenes = good = female

Oh I see where you are going

My DH is respectful and a vocal feminist. He would tell you that he is part of the problem insofar as he has male privilege and he hasn't always used it to dismantle the endemic situation that has led us to where we are. His position is not one of tackling an accusation that hasn't been made (all men), but tackling the prevailing climate of fear experienced by women.

What’s stupid and weak about my argument?

Joke aside, it's rather depressing that it's impossible to have a discussion and god forbid, dare believing that yes, most men do respect women.

I am less and less sure that most women respect women on the other hand. It seems either you are in the "sisterhood" or you are out.

@mbosnz

I was just thinking about DH, who is about the least sexist man I have ever met.

And then I got to thinking about when his mate came round (another very evolved man), and I was thinking about how much mansplaining and talking over me there was. . . Love him to bits, respect him immensely, but I think perhaps I might need to point that out. Slippery slope and all that!

Yes I think the same. An ex Nigel of mine was a lovely bloke. Kind to me, wonderful with his mum and great with his daughter. However years ago he started showing me the texts and jokes from his male friends what’s app group. They were sexist and more. I was appalled. He argued it was banter between men. It took a lot of discussion for him to understand that it’s just not appropriate. He had never thought of the connection between what his mates say and what his daughter experiences. They were two different worlds. What they thought of us funny I thought was sexist. These group of men at the time all had professional nice jobs and families.

Sadly, I'm not sure they do.

I worked with a male Director of PR who I had always liked and rated. The discussion in the office was about Margaret Thatcher ( always lively). He maintained the her govt had achieved nothing.

I said that regardless of her policies, having a female prime minister when I was at school had made me believe I could achieve anything.
And he said.....

"That's a minority issue and absolutely fucking irrelevant."

Actually women form 51% of the population, we are the majority and being helped to feel equal to a man is essential.

For me, his outburst summed up what a so-called "decent man" really thought.

There is a spectrum of disrespectful behaviour towards women. Thankfully very few men are at the far end which involves rape and murder. But then there are less serious sexual assaults, sexual harassment and general objectification of women's bodies and this is widespread. Even more widespread amongst men is an undervaluing and taking for granted of women's time, effort and health that is incompatible with true respect for them. Many men have a mentality that it is fine if their partner does most of the childcare and housework and never gets time for herself. Because she's a woman and that's what woman do.

I agree with you OP. Especially the bit about women being inappropriate with and about men and it totally going under the radar. I understand that there is a difference because men’s physical strength and disproportionate influence in society can make inappropriate behaviour more threatening but I think it is disingenuous to pretend that women don’t overstep the line when it comes to inappropriate behaviour.

I also only socialise with men who 100% respect women, and there are plenty of them.

When my DS friends came round they were all very much ‘Thank you Mrs Patterson’ types. Perfect behaviour. I had known some some since primary school.

Then when they were 17 there was a party. To my sons and the rest of the groups horror this lad kissed a girl who had fallen asleep. He was rounded on, he didn’t get the chance to kiss again or do anything else. He was dropped from the friendship group.

You do not actually know your sons friends properly and are naive if you think you do. It doesn’t mean they are like the lad my DS was friends with but you really don’t know them.

@Holly60 has he got a WhatsApp group with his mates that can be a total eye opener ....

But I get your point: porn = bad = men

Tastesful graphic sexual scenes = good = female

You managed to extrapolate that from @Carolina24’s post?