To think that most men do respect women

[katieloves]

I’m concerned about the vilification of men that we’re hearing a lot about. I know there’s some men who disrespect women and this absolutely needs to stop, but equally I’ve witnessed women being equally disrespectful to men. I’ve seen plenty of women feeling up men etc. on a night out and it being laughed off. If this was reversed it would be considered assault. It feels like all men are being accused of treating women badly and I just don’t see it.

@Haspotential

You're lucky to never have been a victim of crime.

That's not luck, that's likelihood. Most people are not attacked by anybody at all, ever.

'I asked my son/ husband and he told me he definitely isn't misogynistic' Oh wow that clears things up then 😂

I'm sure if you had asked this officer's mum or wife last week they would have said the same thing.

What a sad outlook. I teach my daughter to respect and stand up for herself.

When I was mugged at knifepoint, was that because I wasn’t standing up for myself or respecting myself enough?

[quote katieloves]@GCSE2024

If you are not teaching your DD to be wary of men you are doing her a disservice

What a sad outlook. I teach my daughter to respect and stand up for herself. She is much better at doing that than my ds. I worry more about him.[/quote]
I have a very good job, a fantastic education. Outwardly I am self-assured and confident. Last year, on the tube, a man in a smart suit with a wedding ring on pressed/rubbed his erection into me between Chancery Lane and Holborn. I was literally scared stiff and didn't know what to do.

Your experience, sadly, is not the norm. There is no guarantee your daughter will not encounter different kinds of men.

@supercee

So we can't mention or discuss disrespectful behaviour from men towards women without having to put in the butiknowallmenarentlikethis disclaimer. Got ya.

Depends whether you want a balanced debate or a ‘all men are fucking shit’ pile on.

YABU.

It depends where you set the bar.

Let's set it where it should be. Equal to the amount of respect he'd give to another man. If that were the case, most men would fall very short.

@luxxlisbon

'I asked my son/ husband and he told me he definitely isn't misogynistic' Oh wow that clears things up then 😂

I'm sure if you had asked this officer's mum or wife last week they would have said the same thing.

The mother-in-law did! Thought he was a thoroughly lovely man who would never do a thing like that.

[quote katieloves]@TheWaif the men I know including my 16 year old ds and his friends 100% respect women.[/quote]
And your 16 year old DS isn't yet going out to clubs with his mates, trying to get his leg over.

@luxxlisbon

'I asked my son/ husband and he told me he definitely isn't misogynistic' Oh wow that clears things up then 😂

I'm sure if you had asked this officer's mum or wife last week they would have said the same thing.

Well apparently she’s on a charge of assisting him so what does that tell you?

Loyal to a fault.

The amount of women killed by their partners and the fact that most sexual abuse is carried out by men plus the level of disrespect many men show their partners on here show your view to be rather naive OP. The fact that your son is lovely does not change the data on male violence against women.

Can I politely direct posters talking about how most men are wonderful to this ... www.teachusconsent.com/

The issue has been gaining a ton of traction in press here (Aus) and I’d argue that most of the boys who feature in the testimonials are also no doubt seen as delightful, chivalrous and not at all bad men by their loved ones.

Is it all men? No. But I believe it’s enough of them that clearly something is very very wrong.

I wouldn't take MN, and especially the threads complaining about partners and the threads about feminism, as very representative of our society!

and thank god for that. Or I, as a poster, would be put into the same bag as some the scarily angry irrational ones because we happen to be on the same site. I'd rather not be.

If it was a case of NAMALT... in the sense that NAMALT is trotted out, with everyone outraged that their lovely 'respectful' sons and DHs etc are being tarred with this brush when it's the bad apples ...

we would not be having these conversations
we would not be having these threads
none of this would be the massive, massive discussion it is

because it would only be a few bad apples.

It's not.

It is probably true that a lot of men do respect women and wouldn’t dream of treating them badly. My husband, for instance, was raised by a strong feminist mother, and a very respectful father. As a result he doesn’t just respect me, but sees me as totally equal, and that’s something I’ve observed in his brother too. He’s definitely a respectful man who sees and respects women the way he should.

Having said that, he’s also quite passive, and I can definitely imagine a world in which he would have been at a table with some other men who made sexist comments and not said a word. He’s very much the type to let things go, and sadly, this is where I would say the majority of men fall into.

Women are not afraid to call out other women on their bad behaviour, but men are afraid to call out other men, yet this is the number one thing that ALL men can do to stop this behaviour. Boys will behave better if challenged by their friends, and taught that this behaviour is unacceptable, but how many will truly feel brave enough to do that?

It’s not enough to just be a good guy, sadly, you also have to call this behaviour out in others, and as I said, even my lovely, totally feminist husband would struggle with this. That’s what I see as the biggest change men can make, but it will never happen if the woman around them turn into apologists and bleat ‘not all men’.

Ineedaholidaynow - your DH has never watched porn? You can 100% know that?

@HeathIns

TooTrueToBeGood

Great post and interesting insight.
So behaviour can be totally inappropriate on both sides but the imbalance is the level of threat.

What do you think too good about being seen (by some) as a misogynist, violent, sexual predator just because you are a man?

I accept it because the facts speak for themselves. The statistics across the range of male aggressive behaviours against women can leave no doubt that it is a problem of epidemic proportions. I would like to think that I am a good man but I can look back in my life and take responsibility for things that I regret. It's not nice but as I said in my first post we need to own this problem if we are to stand a chance of solving it.

It is not for me to judge myself. That falls to the women who know me. I accept that women who don't know me may well default to seeing me as a potential threat because to do otherwise would show a serious lack of awareness for the problems we have in society.

@Macncheeseballs

Ineedaholidaynow - your DH has never watched porn? You can 100% know that?

you are so interested.. do YOU? Never?

So posters with the strongest views on porn, how often do you watch it to do your research? You clearly know your subject to have such a violent opinion on it.

I haven't seen an 'all men are shit' pile on. I've seen women who've experienced the myriad ways men disrespect women without even thinking about it.

I hate the fact that we're having to preface our experiences with 'I don't hate men.. but.'

My dad is a decent bloke. He cares for his daughters etc. He abhors violence towards women, thinks rapists should be strung up etc. He has also never lifted a finger round the house, happily calls female politicians slags or bitches if they're on telly and he disagrees with them. He thinks pc has gone too far.

Is he a decent man? Yes. Does he respect women? No. And that's just what I've seen of his behaviour.

I worked in all male environment once. Pretty sure the men's wives didn't know they were dropping their pants to show me their naked arses, asking me which women in the Star I'd do if I were a lesbian and making constant innuendos. I was 21. But they loved their wives and girlfriends. Even the one whose wife was always phoning to see where he was cos of all his affairs.

@HeathIns but I'm not seeing an all men are shit pile on.

For some women that may be their experience, however I'm seeing women trying to raise awareness of being on the receiving end of appalling behaviour at the hands of men. Whether that's at the extreme scale such as rape, or misogynistic comments passed off as 'banter'. Many women on MN today are just by-passing this and going straight for 'NOT ALL MEN ARE LIKE THIS'! jugular.

I don't think ALL men are like this, but there's too many at the moment not to have that discussion. We all just speak from experience. The comments I've received on dating sites makes me weep but I recognise that not all men send horrible messages.

I work in law enforcement so have seen first hand that it's more men than woman.
However if discussing a crime committed by a woman toward a man with my male colleagues I don't feel the need to pipe up with 'not all women act like this'.

I've said it on another thread, I wouldn't pipe up on a BLM discussion with 'my white life matters too!'.

So posters with the strongest views on porn, how often do you watch it to do your research? You clearly know your subject to have such a violent opinion on it.

You don’t have to watch it to be aware of the issues. Articles turn up regularly in the media about the abusive nature of the porn industry.

I guess you are right, the vast majority of men don’t abuse / intimidate women.

The thing that pisses me off is that the massive majority of bone abusive men don’t pull up the misogynistic arseholes.
I’ve seen it time and time again. 1 bloke in a large group treats a women like crap (waitress/bar staff etc). The other men in the group at best just look a bit embarrassed. Haven’t seen anyone pull them up on their shitty behaviour.

It’s not good enough for decent blokes to just not be abusive. Society needs them to pull up the dickheads and point out they are behaving like dickheads.

@debbiegotthejobandwelldone

I wouldn't take MN, and especially the threads complaining about partners and the threads about feminism, as very representative of our society

I agree. The difference between some of the threads on here and actually talking to reasonable, sane people can be vast.

MN has all sort of people, but a strong concentration of certain opinions, which leads to a skewed view.

I'm speechless. Open your eyes OP. Of course 'most men' aren't rapists and abusers. Of course your husband and any sons are 'lovely'. Look around you. How many of your friends and neighbours are saying I've got an abuser at home? Very few. How many have one in the house? A lot. Where do they come from? There is little respect for women and that will never be seen as a problem until a man says "there's a problem here" and women and men stop accepting abusive male behaviour as a socially acceptable thing that's just 'men being men'.

Do men as a group have respect for women. No. No they don't.
It's obviously far more nuanced than that but there is a hell of a lot of evidence to show that not only do lots of men not respect women, they hate them.

I love men. I am surrounded by wonderful men who have the utmost respect for women. I've done that on purpose - I no longer associate with men who repeatedly show through their words and behaviour that they have little respect for women.

@dontdisturbmenow

but I think it is so important for him to understand his privilege and the struggles that women face that he will never have to deal with And do you also discuss with him the privilege that women have? That women can chose to have abortions and end an unwanted pregnancy, a man can't.

That if he opted to pick a career in slow income,he would fi d it much harder to find a better off woman to marry him? That he will still be expected by many to open doors for her and that he will have to think twice about sacking a totally incompetent employee if she's pregnant because it will automatically be assumed that he wants to get rid of her because of the pregnancy rather than her poor work ethics.

Why does everything has to be considered in silos, men vs women? Why not talk about the difficulties that everyone can experience.

I'm raise my children to have respect for all individuals and to judge those only who do them harm directly.

My two sons are the most respectful of women because they see them as individuals, not their different gender.

I have absolutely explained to both of my dc, ds and dd, that no one except the woman in question has autonomy over a woman’s body. I sincerely hope that you have too.

I hope that both my dc understand that if anyone only values their earnings they are not the one for them.

I am always surprised by how many employees suddenly become incompetent when they are pregnant and it is this anomaly that seems to have brought about the protections that pregnant women now have. If there is a genuine reason for dismissal, employees have nothing to fear. I feel I should also point out that this could potentially be an issue for my ds or dd as an employer.

Everyone experiences difficulties, but that doesn’t mean that the issues that women face cannot be discussed independently. Why do you think it is it that when we discuss toxic masculinity and the higher incidence of male suicide you don’t have women clamouring to say but what about women? I understand that my dh and ds may experience different issues to me and I’m not afraid to talk about that to try to understand. I hope that everyone who says namalt asks themselves why they are so afraid to do the same.