To think that most men do respect women

[katieloves]

I’m concerned about the vilification of men that we’re hearing a lot about. I know there’s some men who disrespect women and this absolutely needs to stop, but equally I’ve witnessed women being equally disrespectful to men. I’ve seen plenty of women feeling up men etc. on a night out and it being laughed off. If this was reversed it would be considered assault. It feels like all men are being accused of treating women badly and I just don’t see it.

@LolaSmiles are we not teaching more about consent now in school than we used to? My boys seem to have suggested they have , we had nothing like that taught at school?

So Friday a post went up asking who had experienced male harassment to huge response, so one day later some bloke someone posts they're concerned about the vilification of men??!!

What now? Where? MN isn't the world you know. If men would get off this site they wouldn't feel so vilified.

Ok... So suspending disbelief that this post is coincidental.

1. SOME men respect their wives / GF's / and daughters
2. Those same men can and often have zero respect for other people's wives/GF/daughters.
3. Some men have NO respect for all woman whether related or not.
4. A beautiful but rare group respect all women as much as they respect men or more. But its rare.

So no, despite your evidence, men aren't being wholesale vilified and if truth about some men bothers you than imagine for a sec how women feel.

@ReceptacleForTheRespectable
Why should we have to be nice in order to convince them we deserve to be treated as equal humans

Seriously? This thought process says a lot about you. Do you not see that in order to be treated with respect you have to give respect? If you’re nasty to someone they’ll probably be nasty back, man or woman.

[quote donewithitalltodayandxmas]@LolaSmiles are we not teaching more about consent now in school than we used to? My boys seem to have suggested they have , we had nothing like that taught at school? [/quote]
Well, that was one discussion around rape myths, that exposed that all barring two girls in the class, bought into each and every rape myth. And the teacher did nothing to step in and educate. In my daughter's experience, anyway.

It was educational though. It means my daughter knows how the vast majority of males and also women, it appears, regard consent. Or rather, do not.

Young men in particular are sexually aggressive due to a diet of hardcore porn and good old fashioned misogyny. They see women As objects to be used and discarded. I've always believed that there were no laws many men would happily rape and
Even murder women without a second thought

The detection/conviction rate suggests something other than a fear of getting caught being the reason people don't all rape and murder at will. The detection rate is something like 7% when averaged across all reported crimes and this doesn't account for the number that never get reported or investigated at all

Admittedly it's much higher for murder (90), but it's woeful for rape (1.7)

@Jbon9087
*1. SOME men respect their wives / GF's / and daughters

1. Those same men can and often have zero respect for other people's wives/GF/daughters.
2. Some men have NO respect for all woman whether related or not.
3. A beautiful but rare group respect all women as much as they respect men or more. But its rare*

Do you have any evidence/stats to back this up? Or is this just YOUR opinion? I feel sorry for all the men that know you.

Mumsnet tends to attract women who've had bad experiences with men and so it's little surprise the conversation is biased. Men have every right to keep the conversation in balance. It's the behaviour that is wrong, not being male or female.

LolaSmiles are we not teaching more about consent now in school than we used to? My boys seem to have suggested they have , we had nothing like that taught at school?
More than when I was at school, certainly.

I probably didn't explain myself very well in that post.

What I find is when we cover consent in PSHE, students tend to very much get on board with the fact that consent is essential. I don't doubt there might be a minuscule number who think otherwise, but I'd confidently say they are rare. At the end of lessons you can talk to them about the tea video and most will get it.

But then in another subject where the lesson topic isn't consent, it becomes clear that a worrying minority frankly don't get it. Some are very vocal about it, and others don't challenge them.

So in a PSHE lesson on consent, most will agree you shouldn't pester someone into sex or nag them, or feel entitled to sex just because some intimacy happened last week etc, but in an English lesson where a male character is drunk and threatens to create a scene unless a vulnerable woman sleeps with him then that's not problematic because she didn't have to let him in, didn't have to sleep with him. It highlights that we've got a way to go with education in this area.

[quote katieloves]@ReceptacleForTheRespectable
Why should we have to be nice in order to convince them we deserve to be treated as equal humans

Seriously? This thought process says a lot about you. Do you not see that in order to be treated with respect you have to give respect? If you’re nasty to someone they’ll probably be nasty back, man or woman.[/quote]
You have taken that comment out of context! It was reply to my post. I understood their reply.

Like I mentioned earlier I have DS, I not angry or hate him, I angry at the men because he has to carry burden of bad men, yes he will have to learn how for example when out late at night and sees women walking ahead of him, how she may be scared not because of him doing anything bad but because of the bad men. Just like I angry at men that I have to teach daughter to always need to beware.

Stop the woe my DS or male relatives are hurt, everybody has to play apart because of the bad men. You know my DS has been slapped kicked and punched by boys not girls. My fears for my son are from males not women.

Why are women to blame? and not why women are angry

I used to but not now. The men I have known who conceive of themselves as seeing women as equals and as respecting women, just don't when it comes down to it.

Some examples, a good friend and ex who calls himself a feminist was condescending and scornful of me whenever I had an opinion that differed to his, he earned about 10 times more than his wife and boasted about how he doesn't 'make her pay all the chilldcare'.
A 'feminist' ex held me down by my wrists during sex and when I struggled to free myself he held me down harder.
A lovely male friend told me the most depressing story he heard was of a woman who was being raped, a man came to her rescue. In her confused state she later identified him as the attacker and he was arrested. Lovely friend's sympathy was entirely with the man and not the woman who was so traumatised she made this error. I think it is clear that is a tradegy for both, but he only saw the male's side.
I know a man who clear sees himself as a progressive man who respects women. He thinks he is 'protecting' his wife by shagging other women but keeping it from her (he says if he wasn't shagging other women he would have to leave her, so y'know he's doing her such a big favour by shagging other women without her knowing).
My ExH called himself a feminist yet prioritised him and his career over me at every turn.

I could go on.

Experience has made me cynical. I really have come to believe that most men don't see women as fully human or equal to them, and aren't conscious at all of how their behaviour reveals this belief.

@prettyLittlefool

Mumsnet tends to attract women who've had bad experiences with men and so it's little surprise the conversation is biased. Men have every right to keep the conversation in balance. It's the behaviour that is wrong, not being male or female.

So if some behaviour is only, or overwhelmingly, done by men rather than women; or some things cause only, or overwhelmingly more, damage when done to women rather than to men, should we pretend not to notice it is sex-specific? Should we reject solutions that have a sex-specific element on the grounds that they are sexist?

@katieloves

I love it when people present their views to which they're entitled to "I’ve witnessed women"...blah blah blah BUT demand proof from anyone who doesn't agree. Classic!

Where your proof then??!

[quote katieloves]@ReceptacleForTheRespectable
Why should we have to be nice in order to convince them we deserve to be treated as equal humans

Seriously? This thought process says a lot about you. Do you not see that in order to be treated with respect you have to give respect? If you’re nasty to someone they’ll probably be nasty back, man or woman.[/quote]
Nice as opposed to neutral/civil. Not nice as opposed to nasty. Women don’t owe men “nice”.

@mbosnz and did you challenge the school and teacher about their lack of interjection

Blimey I'm totally the opposite: out of thee thousands of men I have met I think I can count on one hand how many truly respect women. And I mean ACTUAL respect, not just not treating them like shit. But not treating a woman like shit bizarrely elevates men to 'good man' status. I'm amazed more people don't see this

I’ll bite @RootyT00t and the other posters who seem to be Agreeing with you after a hiatus due to being busy. You asked how so and I am not sure how better to explain. The thread states that poster thinks most men do respect woman. A lot of woman have disagreed and in the main pointed out valid points as to why they feel this is in fact not the case.,

So in the interests of balanced debate you might expect a few woman would perhaps say actually I do agree for reasons as follows.

You have presented no evidence or reasoning as to why this statement might be true.

You have with the original poster picked a few headlines and battered on with that. To me that is not presenting your POV in a manner I can understand. As I said to you before it’s basically comparing apples and pears. To present an argument you have to refute the argument Other people are presenting which you haven’t done.

Maybe it would be easier for all of us to understand if you maybe write a paragraph on your views of this entire topic.

Many posters myself included have stated our views very clearly and many uphold the view that woman should be held accountable for their less than desirable actions. BUT at no point have you presented a coherent argument telling me why you think that most men are actually respectful to woman.

[quote donewithitalltodayandxmas]@mbosnz and did you challenge the school and teacher about their lack of interjection [/quote]
No, I didn't 'challenge' them. I brought our concerns to their attention, and to their credit they listened, and a more senior and experienced member of faculty went to do what they could to disabuse the students of their misconceptions. We very much appreciated it.

It's impossible to quantify owing to the high incentive to lie

[quote katieloves]@ReceptacleForTheRespectable
Why should we have to be nice in order to convince them we deserve to be treated as equal humans

Seriously? This thought process says a lot about you. Do you not see that in order to be treated with respect you have to give respect? If you’re nasty to someone they’ll probably be nasty back, man or woman.[/quote]
Er no.... The respect we are talking about here is the basic respect we all owe each other as fellow human beings. Respect for each other's human rights.

There are plenty of humans I don't like, , who are not nice, who hold ideas I disagree with, who are cruel or commit crimes. But do I give them the basic respect of acknowledging their human rights? Yes, I do.

All we are asking for from men is basic acknowledgment of our human rights, our status as equal human beings. That is the level of respect we are talking about here.

@FactsAndFigs and my ds has been hit by a girl and he couldn't fight back and it was also minimised as it was a girl
So why i agree some men are violent and a larger proportion to woman for sure , It is also about teaching respecting others
A man wolf whistling me didn't personally cause me as much damage as a female boss who belittled and bullied me at work
Someone who has endured abuse from a man will have a different view
So again i agree it is mostly a men's problem but we should also address it in women as that seems to be rising , women on women . I have seen a few fights in pubs and one in the playground
So yes we need to address male violence but also violence in general and that its not acceptable against anyone.
Men need to address other men as well when they see this happening , but then my dh was threatened by the women when he did this.

prettyLittlefool whose doing this 'behaviour'?

And I am not sure where you get your evidence of Mumsnet attracting women who have had bad experiences with men.

My guess is that all internet forums and real life situations are full of women who have had such experiences but they often cannot speak of them because they are not as anonymous as Mumsnet

.

If you genuinely need someone to be nice to you in order for you to acknowledge that they are equal humans then you have a problem.

The Nazis did the whole "deciding who gets to be treated as human" thing - they're not an example to aspire to.

I’m not saying they need to be nice for you to acknowledge they are equal. But if someone’s not nice to me, I’m not going to be nice to them. Why should I be?

Maybe you should try being a bit nicer. The results might surprise you.

@JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows out of the thousands you have met how many did you get to know well , or are you talking men in pubs/ clubs
Of most of my friends with partners most have nice men as partners who treat them as equals , in fact most are on par with careers etc, share childcare , household chores
A couple are in less desirable relationships ( not one I would put up , but not violent etc but idiots all the same )
One was in a violent relationship with my dh family member and thankfully they have got out of it and we are all nc with that family member incl my dh as we have obviously stood by their ex partner.
We did try to help whilst they were in the relationship but until they were ready there wasn't a lot we could do