To think that most men do respect women

[katieloves]

I’m concerned about the vilification of men that we’re hearing a lot about. I know there’s some men who disrespect women and this absolutely needs to stop, but equally I’ve witnessed women being equally disrespectful to men. I’ve seen plenty of women feeling up men etc. on a night out and it being laughed off. If this was reversed it would be considered assault. It feels like all men are being accused of treating women badly and I just don’t see it.

@Whenthesunshines

I’m surprised you and your mates didn’t assume your dh was only saying that because he was trying to have sex with you as others have suggested men being supportive of the course are...or maybe he was?

Touche OP.

People did say that, though

[quote Pumperthepumper]**@RootyT00t* You're being a bit sneaky with this thread leaving thing. That was a general point, that misandry' causes this. People with any other opinion bullied off when in actual fact we should be working together.*

How can we treat misogyny and misandry the same? How would that look?[/quote]
That any sexism towards men or women in the workplace or in society is treated with the same severity.

I don't have a problem with tackling misogny, pumper. I really don't.

But I have an issue with the fact toxic feminists want misogny dealt with but don't really care how men are treated at any time.

@LolaSmiles

No, it refers to you, Lola. Me disagreeing with you isn't a pile on.

You've gone as far as to accuse my husband of being a virtue signaller because I said he (like many other decent men) believes that women discussing male violence is not a personal attack on him as a man, and that those men who try to hijack the male violence debate with whataboutery are trying to silence women.

For someone who has spent most of the day arguing that most men are respectful, not all men etc, it seems utterly bizarre to me that when I share about a man who is respectful and cares about the male violence debate, your response is to accuse him of being a liar.🤷‍♀️

I have no idea what you're trying to achieve. On one hand you need to 'stand up for men's against all this anti men, nasty feminist stuff, but then you think it's virtue signalling for a man to demonstrate the very outlook you claim is the norm.

This in spades! ^ Especially the bit where you said ....

"For someone who has spent most of the day arguing that most men are respectful, not all men etc, it seems utterly bizarre to me that when I share about a man who is respectful and cares about the male violence debate, your response is to accuse him of being a liar.🤷‍♀️"

............... That was perfect!

And it illustrates the bizarre and laughable hypocrisy and double-standards of a certain few people on here, and the inconsistencies in what they say.

They say a certain thing, and 'stand by it!' Until it suits them to change it.

Gotta fly now, as me and DH are going for a walk around the village, and then we're having a takeaway pizza and a bottle of wine in front of the last 2 episodes of 'Behind her eyes...' on netflix

So that's me off here for the night now!

Bet this thread is full when I come back! So toodle pipski.

Say 'good riddance' to me if ya like. IDGAF.

Aw thanks for the input littlepattie. I love a good gang handed appreciation from the two posters most guilty of bullying behaviour.

@RootyT00t I’m finding it really difficult to have a conversation with you, which I’m trying to do in good faith.

You agreed that misogyny and misandry are not the same thing, they’re not comparable. And yet you would like them treated the same way. So how do we talk about the issues in society as a result of misogyny (which we agree are numerous) in the same way we talk about the issues in society from misandry (which we couldn’t think of, except online sometimes people don’t like it)? How do you deal with workplace misogyny in exactly the same way as workplace misandry when they are so different from each other? Unless you really believe workplace misandry leads to culture of sexual assault on men, numerous accounts of #metoo at the hands of women, a gender pay gap where men are paid much less than women across the board - do you really believe they are equal problems? And if you don’t believe they are equal, why treat them the same?

And which strippers did you want to talk about?

Yes there are some awful men out there , but there are also some nice ones

Ffs. For the eleventy billionth time. Saying “Men are responsible for 98% of sexually violent crimes” means men as a class. Saying “male violence against women is a problem” means men as a class.

It doesn’t stop Gerald from number 87 being a thoroughly decent chap.

If we're after equality, I feel like we have it.

I research this for a living. I specifically focus on the career development of women and look at the barriers women face in the workplace and society as a whole. I can categorically state we have not achieved equality.

Gin your 10.17 post was very truthful and I think probably very representative of many of our partners, mine included. He now does what he can when he can and is frightened for our daughter if things don't change. I've spoken to him about this lots over the last few days and his response to the NAMALT has been disgust. "Some men need to grow the F up" about those who refuse to call this out whenever safe to do so.

'Pile on', 'bullies', 'gang-up'. Always the cries of someone who cannot stand being told they're wrong.

No one's bullied you, @RootyT00t. You just don't like what people have replied or have an easy rebuttal to your cries of 'won't anyone think of the men'.

So quite a few women posting here are complaining on behalf of men that womens concerns about male pattern violence / toxic masculinity/ systemic misogyny is offensive and hurtful to them and their feelings should be considered to protect them, because most men are respectful to women.

Where are the voices of these respectful men calling out the minority of men who are giving them a bad name? I have seen some, but the vast majority aren't organising themselves or suggesting constructive change.

What we do have are women jumping to their defence as if they are helpless children who need special consideration. That is the only sexism I see tbh.

Women have worked and organised themselves to improve their own lot for years. They have fought stereotyping, inequality and provided safe spaces to the abused, both women and children of both sexes. They have won the battle for votes, still fight for reproductive autonomy and have explained ad nauseam the issues that blight society as a whole, men included.

If men feel so threatened by women stating and arguing their case when it's not the fault of the majority of men, let them stand in solidarity with women and also place the blame where it lies, with the apparent minority.

I wonder if the reason they don't fight amongst themselves like this is because its uncomfortable and doesn't really affect them? But it does. It leads directly to this polarisation, and nothing improves.

[quote Pumperthepumper]@RootyT00t I’m finding it really difficult to have a conversation with you, which I’m trying to do in good faith.

You agreed that misogyny and misandry are not the same thing, they’re not comparable. And yet you would like them treated the same way. So how do we talk about the issues in society as a result of misogyny (which we agree are numerous) in the same way we talk about the issues in society from misandry (which we couldn’t think of, except online sometimes people don’t like it)? How do you deal with workplace misogyny in exactly the same way as workplace misandry when they are so different from each other? Unless you really believe workplace misandry leads to culture of sexual assault on men, numerous accounts of #metoo at the hands of women, a gender pay gap where men are paid much less than women across the board - do you really believe they are equal problems? And if you don’t believe they are equal, why treat them the same?

And which strippers did you want to talk about?[/quote]
Maybe it's good faith, but you're out to trip me up, so I'm never going to achieve anything other than further derailing.

Gotta fly now, as me and DH are going for a walk around the village, and then we're having a takeaway pizza and a bottle of wine in front of the last 2 episodes of 'Behind her eyes...' on netflix

Oooh! Are we all now sharing what we're having for tea/watching on TV later?

Bit weird

But I have an issue with the fact toxic feminists want misogny dealt with but don't really care how men are treated at any time

What’s a toxic feminist? Is it some attempt at a parallel with “Toxic masculinity”?

donewithitalltodayandxmas
Talking about men as a class does not equal saying each and every man is a violent offender.

I’m surprised you and your mates didn’t assume your dh was only saying that because he was trying to have sex with you as others have suggested men being supportive of the course are...or maybe he was?
What's with this 'you and your mates' thing? Between that and another poster talking about a 'brigade' there's a funny way of talking about multiple women who happen to have similar views on male behaviour towards women.

You see, here's the thing.
Some women might believe that men claim to be allies but are thinking about their own gains.
But, and wait for it because here's where the magic happens...
...Other women might also think that some men might claim to be supportive of equality, but they are only partially committed and will say what the they think is the right thing

...And other women might think that there are men out there who do believe in feminist principles and because they recognise that toxic masculinity and the patriarchy is harmful for all.

It turns out that women can be united in a dislike of the patriarchy and sex based oppression and hold different views within that.

It's a mind-blowing idea. 🤯

@BrumBoo

'Pile on', 'bullies', 'gang-up'. Always the cries of someone who cannot stand being told they're wrong.

No one's bullied you, @RootyT00t. You just don't like what people have replied or have an easy rebuttal to your cries of 'won't anyone think of the men'.

No, that's not true.

I don't have an issue with people disagreeing with me.

Or telling me I'm wrong. Or even the ones who claimed im a man.

I have an issue with the appalling behaviour of rocking up on threads to repost things I've said without context, repeatedly, which is what Lola did, or what you did early doors with your painting a picture of me to other posters.
As for pattie, it wasn't me she bullied off the thread.

Funny that. Imagine wanting to think about men on a thread about men. The toxic feminists currently attempting to rule MN are just fuming that this isn't their usual echo chamber.

@SmileEachDay it does when many have put all men or like mp who said all men should be in at 6pm
And lots on here have said all men

What’s a toxic feminist? Is it some attempt at a parallel with “Toxic masculinity”?
Toxic is just one of many adjectives that gets thrown in front of 'feminist' to try and argue that women who stand up against sex based oppression are meanies who need to pay more attention to men.

@LolaSmiles

donewithitalltodayandxmas Talking about men as a class does not equal saying each and every man is a violent offender.

I’m surprised you and your mates didn’t assume your dh was only saying that because he was trying to have sex with you as others have suggested men being supportive of the course are...or maybe he was?
What's with this 'you and your mates' thing? Between that and another poster talking about a 'brigade' there's a funny way of talking about multiple women who happen to have similar views on male behaviour towards women.

You see, here's the thing.
Some women might believe that men claim to be allies but are thinking about their own gains.
But, and wait for it because here's where the magic happens...
...Other women might also think that some men might claim to be supportive of equality, but they are only partially committed and will say what the they think is the right thing

...And other women might think that there are men out there who do believe in feminist principles and because they recognise that toxic masculinity and the patriarchy is harmful for all.

It turns out that women can be united in a dislike of the patriarchy and sex based oppression and hold different views within that.

It's a mind-blowing idea. 🤯

I notice you didn't respond to her comment about posters claiming that men only do it because they fancy us, which no one challenged.

It was me who used brigade, in relation to the wee gang who were telling each other to ignore other posters and being pleased with themselves for bullying someone off the thread. That's why I used that term.

I haven't seen different views at all, just us or them and if you're not in you're out. Let's not paint th feminist section as some kind of welcoming diverse area rather than the toxic space it is.

@LolaSmiles it does when people say all men which many have

@RootyT00t Maybe it's good faith, but you're out to trip me up, so I'm never going to achieve anything other than further derailing

What? How can I possibly trip you up, I’m responding to what you’ve said - you wanted the conversation about misandry. You wanted the conversation about strippers. But you don’t respond to any points!

The fact is, until we can have a conversation about male violence and toxic masculinity without people trying to find an equivalent where women are just as bad or equally to blame or have an equal responsibility for change, people (men and women) are going to keep dying at this insane rate. It’s utterly bizarre to me that we can’t look for solutions to male violence without someone getting hurt feelings and that suddenly being more important than the death rate. It’s just incredible.

@SmileEachDay

But I have an issue with the fact toxic feminists want misogny dealt with but don't really care how men are treated at any time

What’s a toxic feminist? Is it some attempt at a parallel with “Toxic masculinity”?

Toxic, nasty, bullying, gang handed.

Is that preferable?

[quote Pumperthepumper]**@RootyT00t* Maybe it's good faith, but you're out to trip me up, so I'm never going to achieve anything other than further derailing*

What? How can I possibly trip you up, I’m responding to what you’ve said - you wanted the conversation about misandry. You wanted the conversation about strippers. But you don’t respond to any points!

The fact is, until we can have a conversation about male violence and toxic masculinity without people trying to find an equivalent where women are just as bad or equally to blame or have an equal responsibility for change, people (men and women) are going to keep dying at this insane rate. It’s utterly bizarre to me that we can’t look for solutions to male violence without someone getting hurt feelings and that suddenly being more important than the death rate. It’s just incredible.[/quote]
But you're not presenting solutions. What are your solutions? Other than refusing to allow anyone to be in any way positive about men?

@Whenthesunshines

Gotta fly now, as me and DH are going for a walk around the village, and then we're having a takeaway pizza and a bottle of wine in front of the last 2 episodes of 'Behind her eyes...' on netflix

Oooh! Are we all now sharing what we're having for tea/watching on TV later?

Bit weird

The circle and McDonald's

YANBU OP. Most of my friends are male simply because my hobbies are male dominated, and they are wonderful, kind, respectful and, in many ways, vulnerable people. Makes me sad to think that strangers would look at my dear friends and assume they're somehow predatory.

There's a tendency on this website to forget that men are actually human.

The fact 97% of women have been sexually harassed would suggest most men either aren't nice guys or don't understand what constitutes sexual harassment.