To think that most men do respect women

[katieloves]

I’m concerned about the vilification of men that we’re hearing a lot about. I know there’s some men who disrespect women and this absolutely needs to stop, but equally I’ve witnessed women being equally disrespectful to men. I’ve seen plenty of women feeling up men etc. on a night out and it being laughed off. If this was reversed it would be considered assault. It feels like all men are being accused of treating women badly and I just don’t see it.

I haven’t read any posts claiming that ALL MEN disrespect women. It’s obviously not true and no one is saying it is. I’m certainly not. I’ve said that my DH isn’t like that. (I can say for certainly that he doesn’t watch porn either. The only things he watches that I don’t like are football/cricket ).

It’s a bit annoying to feel I have to add this proviso to every post, just to prove that I’m not a man hater when I speak about my own negative experiences.

The men who sexually abused my DSis and me, including my F, were totally respectable men, who no one would have suspected of abusing children. My DM had no idea what my F was really like, and no doubt the same would have been true of the other men’s wives/other family members.

My DM is highly intelligent as well; if she was unaware what her husband was up to, it follows that a lot of other women don’t know what the men in their lives are up to.

The fact is, 60,000 women and girls are raped every year. Unless there are a few very prolific offenders, it means that it isn’t a tiny minority of men that we’re talking about. Because that’s just the number of rapes that are reported. There will be many more that are not, to say nothing of the lower level harassment that posters on this and other threads have spoken of. I have experienced some of that myself whilst travelling on my own, which I’m sure the majority of women have done.

@katieloves No one is saying ALL men ffs

No one wants to see half the population vilified.

No one is saying it's ALL men. It's A LOT of men. Too many men. You just keep coming back with sensationalist responses which no one has said.

My point is these discussions are always derailed because the poor mens feelings. It's not about mens feelings. It's not about men that are good and decent, and I know a few. It's definitely not about women hating. Personally I'd have a hard time with that one as I love my husband and sons more than anything. This is yet another thread on not all men. If my husband can understand that discussions on male violence towards women, and an overall lack of respect towards women, is not about everyone attacking him personally, then surely every man that falls into that category can too.

@RootyT00t You really don't like women do you?

Every single post you submit is screaming that, so don't deny it.

I don't know why anyone is even responding to you tbh.

I'm done with you. CBA with someone talking such rot.

My point is these discussions are always derailed because the poor mens feelings. It's not about mens feelings. It's not about men that are good and decent, and I know a few. It's definitely not about women hating. Personally I'd have a hard time with that one as I love my husband and sons more than anything. This is yet another thread on not all men. If my husband can understand that discussions on male violence towards women, and an overall lack of respect towards women, is not about everyone attacking him personally, then surely every man that falls into that category can too
Well said.
My DH also thinks similarly, as do many of our male friends.

@GreenChips

I was talking to my teen DD this morning and I said I was heartened by how many men I knew had been sharing things on social media etc

And she said to me

How many times have you ever said "I only know decent women" or "none of the women I know have ever assaulted a women"

Then said "you aren't pleased in the same that your female friends are doing things on social media you just except it. You expect them to be decent so expect it of your male friends too. Don't applaud a fish for swimming."

It did actually make me think and she is totally right.

She's bang on, for all their teenage righteousness (at least from mine) they can be very insightful sometimes. That's given me something to think about, a great point.

[quote littlepattilou]@RootyT00t You really don't like women do you?

Every single post you submit is screaming that, so don't deny it.

I don't know why anyone is even responding to you tbh.

I'm done with you. CBA with someone talking such rot.[/quote]
I like women. I love women. I like men. I love men.

I just hate sexism on any form, and at the moment on MN, it's in spades towards the men, at any cost.

It's not la la land where you either love women or hate them. You can think opinions are wrong.

[quote Twintub]@katieloves No one is saying ALL men ffs

No one wants to see half the population vilified.[/quote]
But they are being.

They found her in a bag. A BAG.

It is all men. If they're not perpetuating violence themselves, they're certainly not holding each other accountable for it. They're not calling out shit behaviour amongst their peers. They're letting it slide off them like water, because it doesn't affect them.

They identified her from her dental records.

I don't think men respect women.

@katieloves

To all of you aggressively shouting that ALL men are violent, porn obsessed, raping, murdering misogynists you really do nothing for the cause. You’re actually really offensive.

I agree. I will accept that there are rude, entitled men. There are rude and entitled people everywhere. For some this sense of entitlement extends to their penis and revolting insatiable sexual appetite. I don’t know what the answer is.

I also agree that it is easier not to confront shit behaviour. I am angry with myself because I have ignored this very thing today.
Nothing major in the great scheme of things but I’ve just been to the supermarket and a horrible little man stood right behind me as I was choosing something off the shelf.
He wanted something from the same shelf and I was in his way. If he could have shoved me out of the way I’m sure he would have.
I am kicking myself because I should have asked him what he was doing.
Instead I moved out of the way.
There is no way he would have done that to another man.

I have met some absolute arseholes in my life but equally I have met really kind gentle men and I am sick of misandrists banging their horrible sexist drum.

I agree OP. They are doing NOTHING for the cause.

@littlepattilou they really don't and there's no point falling into any cycle of discussion with them.

[quote BrumBoo]@littlepattilou they really don't and there's no point falling into any cycle of discussion with them.[/quote]
Disappointed to see this Brumboo. I thought we'd moved past the wild accusations from you and your fellow regular posters of me being some sort of self indulgend wind up, the last thread we were on we managed perfectly civil debate again, I thought.

I don't dislike women, but obviously you being a stranger on the internet will be more qualified to answer.

@SmileEachDay

She's started the thread because of the onslaught of threads towards men

An ‘onslaught’ that has happened because Sarah Everard was kidnapped and is now dead, with Christ knows what happening in between those times. By a man.

This case has made many women think “that could easily, easily have been me. It’s made many women think about the kinds of behaviour that they’ve experienced from men in their lives, or strangers.

It’s made many women think about the situation women are still in as a class - both here and worldwide.

I don’t think #namalt is an appropriate response to that. I think that Sarah Everard should be centred. I think women should be centred. I don’t think we should have to dilute that.

I completely agree with this. What happened to Sarah Everard was so horrific, I can’t imagine reading about it and thinking ‘god, I hope this doesn’t offend my DH’.

Men, all men, should be outraged that women can’t walk home in the dark. I haven’t seen a single male-led solution to keeping women safe. Not one.

YABU. Most men do not respect women. Look at the percentage of men who watch degrading porn, visit strip clubs or make sexist jokes. The percentage of men who expect their female partners to clean up after them or put up with them ogling teenage girls.

I've been on this planet for 30 odd years now and I've seen everything from low level sexism to full on sexual assault. And every man who has done it will have a woman somewhere saying "he would never do something like that, he's a good guy, he respects women".

It is all men. If they're not perpetuating violence themselves, they're certainly not holding each other accountable for it. They're not calling out shit behaviour amongst their peers. They're letting it slide off them like water, because it doesn't affect them.

Are they not? The entire male population condones this kind of behaviour do they?
You need to get to know more men because that is simply not true.

Are people not understanding the difference between men (as a class) and individual men?

The treatment of women by men is a discussion about the treatment of women (as a class) by men (as a class). It doesn’t mean that every individual within that class conforms to the analysis.

The problem is that men disrespect women without even thinking about it and women are trained to accept it. Every man who leaves his working wife to be the default parent, leaves his mug on the worktop rather than put it in the dishwasher, deploys strategic incompetence to get out of a chore or allows his wife to shoulder the mental load is disrespecting a woman by assuming that he is more important than she is. Every man who "needs" to destress by going out for a hour cycle on a Saturday afternoon and then "needs" to rest afterwards because he is tired leaving the mother of his children to pick up the slack at home is being disrespectful by putting his needs first. Every man who thinks it is acceptable to keep most of his money to himself when his wife is not working to look after their children or expects her to pay all the childcare if she does return to work is being disrespectful by putting his needs first.

Every male colleague who takes the credit for a female colleagues work, every boss who doesn't give a female member of staff a pay rise or promotion because she has kids, every recruiter who turns down a woman capable of doing a job in favour of a man who can only do some of it because he was good at bullshitting in an interview are disrespecting women. Need I go on?

@HeathIns

It is all men. If they're not perpetuating violence themselves, they're certainly not holding each other accountable for it. They're not calling out shit behaviour amongst their peers. They're letting it slide off them like water, because it doesn't affect them.

Are they not? The entire male population condones this kind of behaviour do they?
You need to get to know more men because that is simply not true.

I'm sure none of the men you know are capable of violence. I mean that sincerely. But I bet you'd be surprised by how few men you know have actually commented on this case, or been compelled to reflect upon the times when they could've acted, could've been an ally, and weren't.

Yes they are. Many wholly avoidable maternal deaths occur because women are not listened to. Maternity services as a whole are chronically underfunded to the point where women often give birth in unsafe conditions. Difficult to argue that this is a society which values women
How self-centered, me, me, me view of our healthcare system.

Some maternal deaths could be avoided, because of problems in the system, human errors, unqualified/trained staff in place or patients not seeking help soon enough. Not because they are not listen to!

However, do you know how many prostate cancer deaths could have prevented? You must do to assume that men get preferable treatment and therefore evidence there are proportionally less such deaths?

One of the most underfunded in crisis services are those that support severe mental health issues. We know that many more men end their lives than women. How can that possibly be when healthcare is so driven to care for male male issues?

7 maternal deaths in 100,000 live birth in the UK.

16.9 make suicide deaths per 100,000 in 2919, the highest since 2000.

Yes, society is definitely make oriented

I just hate sexism on any form, and at the moment on MN, it's in spades towards the men, at any cost.

It really isn't.
It isn't sexist to acknowledge that men as a class pose a threat to women. Not when there is a substantial amount of data to support that fact. We know it's not every man and we all know wonderful men but when you have 97% of women saying they have been sexually harassed by men and two women a week are being killed by male partners it's important to acknowledge it is a lot of men.

multiple hour cycle

OP - can I ask, authentically and sincerely, why is it you felt you had to raise the question of how this situation affects men? For me, they aren’t, in general, a vulnerable class - they are white men with gender and racial privilege. I’m curious as to what aspect of their experience you feel needs your protection and you to speak up for them?

Just to add, males account for 3/4 of all suicides.

It's not all men who don't respect women but you don't know which men it is until it's too late.