To think that most men do respect women

[katieloves]

I’m concerned about the vilification of men that we’re hearing a lot about. I know there’s some men who disrespect women and this absolutely needs to stop, but equally I’ve witnessed women being equally disrespectful to men. I’ve seen plenty of women feeling up men etc. on a night out and it being laughed off. If this was reversed it would be considered assault. It feels like all men are being accused of treating women badly and I just don’t see it.

There are so many factors at play here. There are of course many men that do not treat women with any respect or dignity, and they are the ones who give 'the good ones' a bad name. I think it's dangerous to generalise because it's too simplistic and it's unfair to those who've done nothing wrong.

In my experience most men don’t respect women as much as they respect other men. It’s so systemic and deeply rooted in our culture that it’s easy to miss it (or ignore it) in many cases if you aren’t consciously looking out for it. I think you really need to open your eyes OP. We aren’t imagining this.

[quote ineedaholidaynow]@babbaloushka what happened to that lad, did the school do anything. If not why not?[/quote]
He was spoken to by head of year, the list was confiscated, and that was it. Then DD got in trouble for going in early and pinning a list that said "[school's name]'s biggest virgins: [boy's name]." and was put into isolation for the last day of term. I don't disagree with her punishment, but was very annoyed that the boy got less reprimanding for what he did, considering the upset it caused. Then again, small school, very few Oxbridge applicants, so he was quite 'prized' by the staff.

The “nice guys” were so desperate to point out that they hadn’t murdered any women that their first reaction was to shift the focus to how nice they are rather than focusing on Sarah Everard, or any of the women discussing this dreadful case.

I have severe doubts about the essential niceness of anyone who insists that their needs and narcissistic drive for recognition and acknowledgement entitles them to be centred rather than the people at the heart of the underlying tragedy.

How many of these nice men take Daniel Sloss' advice to 'talk to their boys' and challenge their friends on their words and actions?

The fact that you don’t “see it” doesn’t mean it isn’t a thing.

Also ALL the men you know is a very small portion of the men worldwide.

Most of the men I know don’t respect women, including some of my close family members.

Most cultures worldwide are set in a way that undermine women and the role they have and play in society, and MOST men in those countries are more than happy to indulge in the belief and treat women as second class citizen.

Many countries have laws that are restrictive of women and stop them from having rights or personal freedom, many women are forced to be married as kids, mutilated, ALL OF THIS SO THAT MEN find them appealing and marriage-worthy.

Women in most societies are defined and treated based on what the local men think they are worth, nothing more, nothing less.

The fact that you can’t see that means you are lucky, it’s good if you think you know exactly what your 14yo boy is doing along with all of his mates despite likely not hanging out with them for most of the day and not witnessing the majority of their interactions with women.

Hopefully you are right but even if that’s the case for your son, it really isn’t the case of “most” men.

Also you have no clue how all the men in your life actually behave, they might treat YOU with respect while being totally vile and predatory with another woman in person or via text. You have no clue.

The fact that you assume that how a man behaves around you is synonymous of how he behaves at all time and that if a man treats you with respect he is for sure treating everyone like that is naive at best.

Yes, plenty of women are equally shockingly disrespectful and some aren’t much better than men in their behaviors but women hold very little power and their disrespect for men doesn’t usually escalate in sexual assault or murder, so it’s not quite comparable.

In my experience most men don’t respect women as much as they respect other men

Millions of men voted for Thatcher and May and sing God Save the Queen.

@babbaloushka his punishment definitely didn’t fit the crime. Were the students talked to as a group about how disrespectful this behaviour was

The top and bottom of it is:

• when was the last time you heard of a man dying during 'rough sex'?

• when was the last time you heard of a man being kidnapped and murdered by a woman?

• when was the last time you heard a man being catcalled in the street by a woman?

• when was the last time you a heard a male deciding to take a different route home because they were afraid of what might happen if they came across a woman while walking through a dark area alone?

• when was the last time a male called you because they were walking alone and needed to be seen to be talking to someone?

• when was the last time a male told you they had faked a phone call for the same reason as above?

• when was the last time a male told you they had forked out money they couldn't really afford on a taxi instead of taking the bus at night?

You may have answers for a few of the above.

But the fact that all of the above applies to the vast majority of women is UNDENIABLE.

Sadly, taking precautions such as these is often second nature for a woman. No men I know ever think twice about walking home alone or getting the bus at night.

The shark analogy is a good one, look it up.

I think there's a lot of men who don't respect women and make that quite clear. It's vile but at least we know what we're dealing with.

However there's also a lot of men who say they respect women, and probably believe they really mean that but if you drill down they do actually mean they respect women in their rightful place in the pecking order. And they don't even realise this themselves unless challenged because its so ingrained.

I'm trying to think of some examples.

When we got married I didn't change my name. My husband remarked a couple of times that it was a shame we didn't have the same name. I suggested if he felt strongly that he could change his surname to mine. He was horrified. When I challenged him to articulate his feelings he admitted that it would seem emasculating. As if he was "owned" by a woman. I pointed out that he must therefore think its OK for women to be "owned" by a man ... because they are a lesser subspecies? The penny dropped.

I also had a boyfriend at uni who would make disparaging comments about women in the public eye who he deemed unattractive, despite considering himself woke (not that that was an expression then). For example, Ann Widdecombe who was on TV a lot at the time. I queried why. He wasn't considering her as a potential partner so what did her looks and weight have to do with him? She's on TV because she's a politician, not to participate in a beauty contest. If he wasn't being sexist then why did he not also assess the aesthetics of male politicians on TV? His attitude smacked of " if a woman isn't attractive she should keep out of sight ". He spluttered and denied it but couldn't justify it. Apparently my challenge to him was being "artful" and "trying to pick a fight".

It's all so insidious. Even the nice guys are at it.

@User133847

In my experience most men don’t respect women as much as they respect other men

Millions of men voted for Thatcher and May and sing God Save the Queen.

How is that relevant ? Also British men aren’t MOST men, they are some men and who they vote for has no correlation with who they respect.

I am in the US plenty of people voted for Biden this time around, not many respect him. Sometimes you vote for who you gotta vote for or the one who best suits your view. Nothing to do with respect and how you personally feel towards them.

[quote ineedaholidaynow]@babbaloushka his punishment definitely didn’t fit the crime. Were the students talked to as a group about how disrespectful this behaviour was[/quote]
Nope, nor were the other girls affected spoken to or reassured by staff. I think if a fuss hadn't been kicked up over my DD's note, they wouldn't have spoken to him at all- the girl who was bottom of the list was upset and went to pastoral support and reported it, but nothing was done until after the retaliatory note. It was incredibly poorly handled, I don't even know if they spoke to his parents, he's at a top university in London now.

@Haspotential

You're lucky to never have been a victim of crime.

What a ridiculous thing to say. I've been on the receiving end of crime from both men and women. I've seen women on multiple occasions nearly destroy the lives of female friends and family. The fact remains that most men and women are perfectly respectful people.

Hatred of men is only going to curdle your insides and make you bitter. It might be time to look around and realise most people are good.

What’s voting for a political party and singing the national anthem got to do with men respecting women

Did they vote Tory purely because the party was led be women and that point in time will they stop singing the national anthem when we have a King as head of state

You are scrapping the barrel with that argument

It devastates me that not being a rapist or wife beater is somehow the standard for a good man these days. Overtly not harassing or abusing women doesn’t make you a good man or respectful of women - it makes you a man who doesn’t abuse women... there needs to be more action from men and more responsibility taken by men. Plus I call nonsense on anyone who says men are equally at risk.

Discussions like this always make me think of Margaret Atwood quote - Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them.

@Mn3245

It devastates me that not being a rapist or wife beater is somehow the standard for a good man these days. Overtly not harassing or abusing women doesn’t make you a good man or respectful of women - it makes you a man who doesn’t abuse women... there needs to be more action from men and more responsibility taken by men. Plus I call nonsense on anyone who says men are equally at risk.

Discussions like this always make me think of Margaret Atwood quote - Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them.

Grief, yes.

I see so many women who are in coercive relationships of one sort or another but it 'doesn't count' because there's no physical violence involved just a mass of invisible harms that wrecks women's peace of mind and their quality of life.

@User133847

In my experience most men don’t respect women as much as they respect other men

Millions of men voted for Thatcher and May and sing God Save the Queen.

How many other female PMs can you name then? Oh wait, you can't because there's only been two, ever. I doubt you could have found a worse example to support your agenda if you tried, well done. On top of that you're general logic is as flawed as the old "I'm not racist, some of my friends are black" line.

Men are driven by testosterone, a very powerful hormone.
I was really surprised to hear that middle class left leaning teenaged boys paid for each other to have a lap dance on their 18 th birthdays.

It was seen as a rite of passage.

Seems men are fundamentally different- and one of the most “Right On” Guardian reading men I worked with was a terrible sex pest, yet people thought he was utterly charming.

Men ARE different to women, and different in basic drives.

About misandry, Gearmáine Greer said, (paraphrasing) Women don't hate men, women love men, the problem is that men hate women.
How many of us women have looked up to fathers and boyfriends and partners initially in adoration, to be disappointed over and over at how they disrespect us.

@TheJerkStore

I know women who treat males appallingly.

What is the point here?

There's a difference between individual experiences and the way women are treated as a group.

Yes there are women who treat men badly and may even hate men but that is not resulting in huge numbers of men being subject to sexual harassment, violence, rape and murder. It's not causing systemic, deep rooted inequalities across all aspects of their lives.

It's not relevant to this discussion.

This 100%. I'm 17 and every girl I've talked to about this has been sexually harassed. Catcalling, to dodgy consent, physical abuse and there's probably worse. I'm lucky to have not seen the worst. I know rude women and nice men. But there's not a systematic fear in men in public places. They don't understand the fear in walking in the dark, of large groups of male banter. OP a lot of the boys I know aren't bad people. But there sexual with women, they dont take no for an answer (because its romantic to keep pursuing) and never think about making the women comfortable because where theyre uncomfortable there not scared. and they're very defensieve because there feelings come first. I'm sure there mothers think they're brilliant. And many men are great. No one said its all men but it is all women.

Millions of men voted for Thatcher and May and sing God Save the Queen.

Oh well that's okay then. Problem solved 🙄

I don't hate men, l hate what l see in daily observation in how women are treated as second class and in the FACTS on violence and harassment against women.

@Chimeraforce

No. They wear a veneer of civility as little as demanded by polite society. Even the ones you think are decent are just reigning in their testosterone fuelled urges.... Until they either cannot or an opportunity to get away with it presents itself. They're just masking.

What a load of absolute nonsense.

@oakleaffy

Men are driven by testosterone, a very powerful hormone. I was really surprised to hear that middle class left leaning teenaged boys paid for each other to have a lap dance on their 18 th birthdays.

It was seen as a rite of passage.

Seems men are fundamentally different- and one of the most “Right On” Guardian reading men I worked with was a terrible sex pest, yet people thought he was utterly charming.

Men ARE different to women, and different in basic drives.

Very true. The 'right on' liberals are the least trustworthy of the lot.

Men are ruled by their hormones.

What are woman ruled by?

@RootyT00t

What are woman ruled by?

Generally? Men.

Sorry. Couldn't resist that.