The problem with "#NotAllMen"

[TheABC]

I read this on the BBC and it beautifully sums up the doublethink problem women face in society.

*"...some people are keen to point out that it's a tiny minority of men who are attackers - using the hashtag #NotAllMen.

"The issue with the argument is that women can't win," says Daisy.

"They want women to not treat all men as potential attackers, but then we also are asked to keep ourselves safe.

"Keeping ourselves safe means that we have to see everyone as potential attackers because if we were to say, 'OK, not all men, we will treat everyone as innocent until proven guilty", that's when these things happen.

"And that's when people say, she should have been more careful.

"So it's really tough, because I think it's an attitude that's really built into society."*

Is she (and I) being unreasonable?

it seems unfair on the section of the male population who don't act like morons to expect them alone to correct the behaviour of ones who do But it's fair for women to be left to do it, is that right?

We can say NAMALT all we like but nearly every young woman has suffered harassment. This behaviour has to be addressed and stopped. I'm sick of the outrage when male aggression is discussed. Why can't we talk about it without posters popping up to defend the poor men who aren't harming women (nearly every woman is harmed remember)? Why are we so afraid to challenge the fucked up status quo where danger to women is worth so much less than men's feelings? Because if a man's feelings are hurt over this then he's the problem too. I don't know what the answer is but it has to be something radical because women can't go on like this.

@Chatterbox1987

I just think its a sad time.... just as we as a society have finally come to the realisation that not all Muslims are terrorists, we are now claiming all men to be rapist and murderes.... its a sad world we live in.

No we're not.

I think it's a sad world we live in that we can't talk about violence against women without bloody people piping up saying hey don't be mean to men, we're not all like that.
Big meanies that women are defending womens rights and talking about the sexual harassment and violence they experience. Can't do that because you're tarring all men with the same brush bullshit.

This whole thread makes me incredibly sad.

There's quite a few similar threads going on like this and it's interesting to see how they are both going.

And what is this it's not fair crap.
It sounds pathetic.

And men can't win.
Win what??

Why is pointing out that ridiculous and exaggerating views are doing no favour to anyone, why is that always translated as "defending the poor men"?

Why is no woman allowed to express a different opinion without being put down, ridiculed and insulted?

Why are you pretending to defend women when you really constantly shut them up, put them down and ignore their best interest? Why is that?

Have you got so little regard and respect that your only view is: chose the patriarchy or us, and shut up? You can't even tolerate a tiny bit of discussion?

Who are you actually talking to?

Men and women can't win. It's so sad but it's the same the world over and has always been this way. I guess it's some kind of genetic trait. Cave men I'm sure hunted women to take sexually and impregnate. Maybe we should have a reverse Gilead where all men have a microchip inserted at birth and women ruled.

@TheABC

So I should centre men then, *@RootyT00t*?

1 in 4 women will experience domestic abuse and 1 in 5 sexual assault during her lifetime. (Home Office stats, 2019).

I don't think we have the luxury (as a sex class) to do that.

But the problem with that statistic is that it is only saying women are victims; it doesn't specify who are the abusers. It doesn't specify what proportion of men are abusers.

At 17, I probably counted in that statistic of 1 in 5 women (although I never reported it). It wasn't a man, though, who assaulted me.

We can't vilify all men for the actions of a few. Most men are not dangerous.

@anamazingfind

Men and women can't win. It's so sad but it's the same the world over and has always been this way. I guess it's some kind of genetic trait. Cave men I'm sure hunted women to take sexually and impregnate. Maybe we should have a reverse Gilead where all men have a microchip inserted at birth and women ruled.

good lord, when you see how women treat and put down other women, that would make the patriarchy a holiday camp!

In my nearly forty years of life though, I can't recall witnessing a single instance of a man committing violence against a woman in public. I'm not saying that violence against women doesn't happen but I think most men are aware (or are at least under the impression) that if they attack a woman in public, in front of witnesses, there's a reasonable chance that other people will intervene. So with the best will in the world, the opportunity to intervene just hasn't presented itself.

Right, so your bar is that you’ve never seen a man violently physically assaulted a woman in public?

You will have seen violence committed against women. You will have been present when men touch women sexually without their consent, when men behave in an entitled way towards women, when men aren’t taking no for an answer, when men think they deserve our time and attention. I’m sure you’ve been present when men have spoken about women in disrespectful ways, given how many men are comfortable doing so in front of women let alone other men.

You can’t separate these things out from violent physical attacks. They all form part of the problem, as does anyone who witnesses these things and says nothing.

There was a tweet the other day from a woman who was receiving racial abuse at a bus stop. A terribly nice man stepped in to defend her. That same man felt entitled to hit on her once they were on the bus, and get angry when she rejected him.

So which was he, one of these good men or a bad man? If only life were so black and white. Some of the nastiest pieces of work I’ve ever encountered would describe themselves as good men, nice guys, stand up blokes. Our experience is that any man constantly going on about what a good guy he is, is usually not. Good men right now are listening to women’s experiences and reflecting on their own actions, whether seemingly minor or major. I know this because the small number men I do know that I can trust are doing exactly this right now and realising that they are not perfect.

Women as a social class should be allowed to discuss the threat of violence and harassment we negotiate on a daily basis without defending All men. FFS! Why are men being defended? Doth he protest too much? Sounds like the cogs of patriarchy turning.
Women are a separate protected social class because of the high rates of violence perpetrated against women and girls, by boys and men. 3 to 4 women currently murdered per week in UK.
How many women have not been punched in the face or had bones broken, but have given their bodies when they didn't want to, for men's selfish sexual pleasure or done the heavy lifting in the family work, without wanting to or being helped? Not violence but violating to one's sense of being a person. Women are people. This patriarchal bias against women is Big, sisters, the air we breathe is thick with it.

Women are allowed have opinion and join the discussion despite not being one of your "sisters"

Nice to see that it didn't take long for the 'poor men, why are women so mean to the poor men' argument to show up.

It beautifully illustrates the problem.

It beautifully illustrates the problem.

Does it? I found it illustrate better how women worst enemies are other women.

I've seen the words not all men over and over and over again in this thread, and yet I haven't once seen anyone claiming that all men are violent towards women.

Regarding the idea that bad men only hang out with bad men so it's inevitable - that's not true! I used to be in a friendship group where men would make comments and jokes, and I pushed back on it and was vilified, told I had no humour etc etc. There were good guys in this group but they ignored it for a quiet life so I left and moved on. A few years later it turns out one of the guys raped my friend and the 'good guy' was on the phone to me in tears about it. I believe two things -

1. they saw the signs early on that this guy held the kind of beliefs that allowed him to self-justify. They should have given him the boot so he wasn't around their female friends.

1. If they had actually censured the comments and 'banter' then it wouldn't have escalated like that. It was the culture of acceptance that culminated in that hideous event.

The good men weren't violent but they were quiet and they are people who may well listen to us and change their behaviour

They have proved the point so many of us have said that we are always always shut down from talking about male violence towards women and girls

@OhWhyNot

They have proved the point so many of us have said that we are always always shut down from talking about male violence towards women and girls

Nothing will change if we let the discussion get shut down 🙄

Does it? I found it illustrate better how women worst enemies are other women
That's part of the problem.

Why are some women scrambling to prove how much they need to centre men and men's feelings and deny or minimise the issues?

Because the whole bloody system is based on prioritising men and sidelining women.

If you’re a man who is angry about this, who has honestly evaluated their past behaviour and determined that they have never been part of this problem, why are you angry at women?

Why aren’t you angry at the men who do participate in this culture? Not just the the overt physical and sexual violence but all of the male behaviours that contribute to the idea that this behaviour is inevitable.

The fact that so many self-appointed good men are angry with women for their reaction to the normalisation of this behaviour is what speaks volumes.

@Deathgrip

There's one instance that happened overseas when a woman began to shout that someone had groped her. It was a crowded place and she didn't know was responsible and neither did I. Other than that, if any of those things happened in my presence, I wasn't aware of them. The only other incident that comes to mind is when an attractive young woman was waiting by the side of the road with a suitcase and two young men in a car stopped to an asked her if she wanted a lift. I had a bad feeling about it so stopped walking and pretended to check my phone while I watched how things developed. But she declined and they drove off.

Apart from those two, I'm afraid I don't remember any obvious incidents where I could have been the knight in shining armour. Did they happen. Probably. Did I know about it? No. Could I try to be more aware of it in future? Maybe. But I'm neither a policeman nor a vigilante. I'm not on patrol when I'm outside of my home.

I've never claimed to be a 'good' guy. I'm far from perfect. There are many things in life I've done that I regret. I suspect I'm not in the minority in that respect, amongst men or women. But when I read such charming ideas on MN as curfews to be imposed on all men or young men should have their sperm stored for later in life and forcibly neutered, I can say with some confidence that I haven't done anything to deserve that. These things are a problem that we need to tackle together, men and women, as a society. By all means, let's bring these problems to light, let's talk about them. But let's not indulge in ideologically charged, with-us-or-against us nonsense, laying the charge at the doors of every man who isn't responsible and who may have no possibility of influencing the behaviour of others.

@LolaSmiles

Does it? I found it illustrate better how women worst enemies are other women That's part of the problem.

Why are some women scrambling to prove how much they need to centre men and men's feelings and deny or minimise the issues?

Because the whole bloody system is based on prioritising men and sidelining women.

I'm not scared of other women when I'm walking alone in the dark

[quote PoklingtonP]@Deathgrip

There's one instance that happened overseas when a woman began to shout that someone had groped her. It was a crowded place and she didn't know was responsible and neither did I. Other than that, if any of those things happened in my presence, I wasn't aware of them. The only other incident that comes to mind is when an attractive young woman was waiting by the side of the road with a suitcase and two young men in a car stopped to an asked her if she wanted a lift. I had a bad feeling about it so stopped walking and pretended to check my phone while I watched how things developed. But she declined and they drove off.

Apart from those two, I'm afraid I don't remember any obvious incidents where I could have been the knight in shining armour. Did they happen. Probably. Did I know about it? No. Could I try to be more aware of it in future? Maybe. But I'm neither a policeman nor a vigilante. I'm not on patrol when I'm outside of my home.

I've never claimed to be a 'good' guy. I'm far from perfect. There are many things in life I've done that I regret. I suspect I'm not in the minority in that respect, amongst men or women. But when I read such charming ideas on MN as curfews to be imposed on all men or young men should have their sperm stored for later in life and forcibly neutered, I can say with some confidence that I haven't done anything to deserve that. These things are a problem that we need to tackle together, men and women, as a society. By all means, let's bring these problems to light, let's talk about them. But let's not indulge in ideologically charged, with-us-or-against us nonsense, laying the charge at the doors of every man who isn't responsible and who may have no possibility of influencing the behaviour of others.[/quote]
That curfew thing was a joke in response to women being told that they have to change their behaviour not to be assaulted, and the fact that it was so easily taken out of context goes to show quite how little we actually want to address the issue in good faith

if the hedgehogs campaigners started ridiculous campaigns about putting all badgers in a cage or medicating them to ensure the survival of the species, they probably would!

There are actually MANY people who cull/want to cull badgers due to their apparent cause of TB spread - so it’s not that far fetched.

It is not possible or fair to blame all men and lock them all in a cage. But it is also not fair that women, children, animals and even other men are at risk every day so something has to be done.

A good start would be having tougher jail sentences or having a curfew for those who have been convicted of violence.
Of course that won’t stop it but in many cases you find that they have already committed a violent crime.
It should also be taught from a young age - how long have we been brain washed to think if a little boy hits a girl at school it’s because he likes her?

People are so quick to blame race every time a crime is committed but the only constant is that it’s men. I do not hate men in anyway and I have amazing men around me - but they too understand that it’s not women that are the problem here.

I'm not scared of other women when I'm walking alone in the dark
No, but if you happened to be attacked then unfortunately there's an inevitable crowd of women who will:

1. Say "but why were you walking there at night? Why didn't you do A, B, C?
2. If you express concerns about male pattern violence say "but don't talk about that because NAMALT!"

The fact that on a thread following a woman's murder there's several people saying "awww but what about the men, men get murdered too, by NAMALT" is hugely problematic because it's people trying to shut down women who want to discuss male pattern violence.

Male violence is a man problem.
Women trying to shut other women up for talking about male violence by saying NAMALT / think of the men is still part of the problem.

I'm not scared of other women when I'm walking alone in the dark

the only time i was ever physically assaulted was by women.

So I am not exactly neutral towards them frankly.

@LolaSmiles

I'm not scared of other women when I'm walking alone in the dark No, but if you happened to be attacked then unfortunately there's an inevitable crowd of women who will:

1. Say "but why were you walking there at night? Why didn't you do A, B, C?
2. If you express concerns about male pattern violence say "but don't talk about that because NAMALT!"

The fact that on a thread following a woman's murder there's several people saying "awww but what about the men, men get murdered too, by NAMALT" is hugely problematic because it's people trying to shut down women who want to discuss male pattern violence.

Male violence is a man problem.
Women trying to shut other women up for talking about male violence by saying NAMALT / think of the men is still part of the problem.

I was agreeing with you