The problem with "#NotAllMen"

[TheABC]

I read this on the BBC and it beautifully sums up the doublethink problem women face in society.

*"...some people are keen to point out that it's a tiny minority of men who are attackers - using the hashtag #NotAllMen.

"The issue with the argument is that women can't win," says Daisy.

"They want women to not treat all men as potential attackers, but then we also are asked to keep ourselves safe.

"Keeping ourselves safe means that we have to see everyone as potential attackers because if we were to say, 'OK, not all men, we will treat everyone as innocent until proven guilty", that's when these things happen.

"And that's when people say, she should have been more careful.

"So it's really tough, because I think it's an attitude that's really built into society."*

Is she (and I) being unreasonable?

It’s NOT all men but it is ALL woman!

With all due respect men just need to pipe down and listen to what we’re saying. The fact that men seem more offended by us voicing concerns than they are of us being attacked, kidnapped, raped, sexually harassed and murdered is a big issue.

I came across this post on social media the last few days, written by a man and I can’t express how important it is that men just really take in what this mans saying.

Lads. Fellas. Blokes. Geezers.
We are being asked to step up. In the first instance to listen. Really listen, to what it is that women are telling us right now. They’re screaming in rage and fear for their very lives on the daily.
If your first reaction is ‘not all men’, have a fucking word with yourself. Ask yourself why you feel the need to defend yourself when these facts and figures are placed before us. You couldn’t say anything less supportive right now. As many women are attesting to, it may be ‘NOT all men’ but it is ‘ALL women’.
And once we’ve listened, and more importantly actually fucking heard what they’re saying, we need to take action.
Call out every whiff of this kind of behaviour when you see or hear it, or even feel it. Sure, occasionally you’ll get a ‘mind your own fucking business’ from someone who isn’t actually in danger/fear. But take 100 of them on the chin if just once you make another human being feel (or be) safer for a minute.
Dig deep and find your empathy boys. Imagine someone else’s mind set in a given situation. How could your behaviour be misconstrued and adding to the fear? Can you cross the road so you’re not coming up behind someone? Can you call out that your ‘jogging by on your left’ or some such if that’s not possible? Can you make a phone call as your strolling along so you can be easily heard and then seen before giving someone a heart attack when your suddenly in their peripheral?

And super importantly: don’t force your hero complex in to a situation. Asking and offering to help someone feel safer is a chance to take the cue if it’s needed and step away if it isn’t. Being insistent and pushy can be just as threatening guys, if you’re help isn’t wanted or needed, so be it! Put the pout away.

There are thousands of small (and not so small) ways that we can work towards a world where 51% of the population don’t feel able to walk down the fucking street without arming themselves with keys.

I’d invite any woman reading, and who feels willing/able, to add any other advice they have for us to be more help than hinderance. BUT (and pay special attention here lads) it is not THEIR job to fix this. IT IS OURS. The problem is with our lot and we’ve gotta take control.

So what are you doing to help boys? How can we be less threatening. Can we find ways to ensure women don’t look at us and wonder will it be him? I don’t have all the answers but I reckon together we can make sure this shit changes. If fucking has to lads, it’s breaking my fucking heart.

@BeaglEagle

The curfew idea is one that I've seen quite a few times and it isn't always presented as a joke. Let's say it was a joke though, how would you feel if that kind of joke was made about some other group because some portion of them were seen to be behaving badly?

BeagleEagle
Oops, sorry. I totally misunderstood. I blame sleep deprivation

BeagleEagle

I have been on here a number of years I have never once seen a thread that has only discussed male violence towards women and girls without the men suffer too women are violent and often remarks

This is part of the problem it’s an extension of the problem

I’ve worked in dv women are questioned why they allowed the violence to happen

A women reports rape what are her actions, was she drinking, what was she wearing

Now a young women is abducted and murdered from a busy road (I drive down that road often it’s not a quiet road and irrelevant if it was) why was she walking alone

Ask these questions you are part of the problem and that has to be addressed

@LolaSmiles

BeagleEagle Oops, sorry. I totally misunderstood. I blame sleep deprivation

No worries, I wasn't clear 🤗

@LolaSmiles

Nice to see that it didn't take long for the 'poor men, why are women so mean to the poor men' argument to show up.

It beautifully illustrates the problem.

Well, it will show up because despite the efforts of some posters, this is not a dictatorship where only women matter.

But the joke actually called attention to the fact that women actually do have a curfew- just not an official one. The people getting irate don't seem to be appreciating the irony.

The curfew idea is one that I've seen quite a few times and it isn't always presented as a joke. Let's say it was a joke though, how would you feel if that kind of joke was made about some other group because some portion of them were seen to be behaving badly?
Women have essentially been advised to follow a curfew for the crime of existing. Not because some of them were behaving badly, but because the police think that's a solution to women being murdered just for being a woman walking down the street.

Tell me again about how turning this advice into a joke is super upsetting for poor old men.

@TheMoth

But the joke actually called attention to the fact that women actually do have a curfew- just not an official one. The people getting irate don't seem to be appreciating the irony.

No, the people getting irate don't think it's acceptable to joke in these circumstances.

No, the people getting irate don't think it's acceptable to joke in these circumstances.
No, the people getting irate weren't getting irate about male pattern violence, or the suggestion that women should avoid going out at night, but they're now super upset and angry and the mean women when some women suggest men follow the advice given to women.

Women get murdered and violently attacked = women should stay inside
Women swap 'women' for 'men' in the advice given = some people get triggered because NAMALT!!!

I actually think it is ALL men. And I’m someone who has a lovely father, brother and husband. No, none of them would ever use violence against anyone and nor would they sexually harass anyone. But I’m pretty sure all of them have laughed at misogynistic jokes (not in front of me but with mates) and I don’t know if they would actively step in and do something if they saw a woman being harassed as they would be scared for their own safety.

Until “nice men” step up and refuse to laugh at these jokes and stand up to the “bad men”, they are also part of the problem as they perpetuate the cycle by allowing bad men to get away with it.

This is part of the problem it’s an extension of the problem

I’ve worked in dv women are questioned why they allowed the violence to happen

A women reports rape what are her actions, was she drinking, what was she wearing

Now a young women is abducted and murdered from a busy road (I drive down that road often it’s not a quiet road and irrelevant if it was) why was she walking alone

Ask these questions you are part of the problem and that has to be addressed

Absolutely this!

If a male was walking home alone at night and attacked by a group of men everyone would just say bad it is.
If a female was walking home alone at night and attacked by a group of men people would be questioning why she was walking alone, why did she not get a taxi or walk with a friend. Instead of why did those men attack her.

Women just get the blame in many situations whether they are violent or not.
If a husband cheats on his wife it’s the women who he cheats with that gets most of the blame and not the man.
A certain prince and his wife made certain decisions and it’s the wife who’s apparently brainwashed her husband and not the other way around.
And the amount of times rapes have happened and the women is blamed for having too much to drink, wearing too little clothing, getting in a unmarked taxi, initiating a kiss with the man etc.

@LolaSmiles

No, the people getting irate don't think it's acceptable to joke in these circumstances. No, the people getting irate weren't getting irate about male pattern violence, or the suggestion that women should avoid going out at night, but they're now super upset and angry and the mean women when some women suggest men follow the advice given to women.

Women get murdered and violently attacked = women should stay inside
Women swap 'women' for 'men' in the advice given = some people get triggered because NAMALT!!!

You don't know that

I get irate at women being murdered. I get irate at misandry. I get irate at different things. It's allowed.

@Conkergame

I actually think it is ALL men. And I’m someone who has a lovely father, brother and husband. No, none of them would ever use violence against anyone and nor would they sexually harass anyone. But I’m pretty sure all of them have laughed at misogynistic jokes (not in front of me but with mates) and I don’t know if they would actively step in and do something if they saw a woman being harassed as they would be scared for their own safety.

Until “nice men” step up and refuse to laugh at these jokes and stand up to the “bad men”, they are also part of the problem as they perpetuate the cycle by allowing bad men to get away with it.

But they are not responsible for other males behaviour, are they?

And as for not stepping in...my lovely, brilliant father would not approach s lone female in distress because he's scared that had something have happened he'd be done.

Is that his fault?

I actually think it is ALL men. And I’m someone who has a lovely father, brother and husband.

I disagree and actually don’t think it is ALL men but I do think many of them have a bit of something in them which they may not even realise themselves. You only have to read the threads on here about rape and violence and the men are now loving dads and husbands and the new wife’s are unaware of what they’re capable of.

I do think it is more of a mans responsibility than a women’s responsibility to try and sort this out.
For years women have asked to have similar rights to men but they are dismissed often subconsciously because of this built in hierarchy that men dominate over women. Even on here women are asking for help to reduce the violence but there’s people saying what about the poor men - it is built in us to think that men’s views should be held higher than women’s. So it’s actually going to take the men to take action because women just won’t be listened to.

I haven’t read all the responses because quite frankly I’m sick of all the diatribe from people (men and women) on here who are “offended” and their go to response is not all men!
Instead I’m going to post a link to this guy: twitter.com/moxieswagger/status/1370484619783593984?s=21 it’s a really powerful message - he gets it! He gets why men have a huge responsibility and why most women feel the way they do. Men need to step up and listen, really and truly listen. end of!

This has many similarities to BLM and you’ll find it is the same people who are against the BLM movement are against this too.

They are predominantly going to be white males because they are at the top of the ‘food chain’ and any sort of equality means they may lose that spot so they get defensive and asking what about their rights.

Those who understand that BLM matter doesn’t mean white lives don’t matter will also understand that when we say we want to stop men being violent against women, children and animals we don’t mean ALL men just the men that commit theses crimes.

@toocold54

This has many similarities to BLM and you’ll find it is the same people who are against the BLM movement are against this too.

They are predominantly going to be white males because they are at the top of the ‘food chain’ and any sort of equality means they may lose that spot so they get defensive and asking what about their rights.

Those who understand that BLM matter doesn’t mean white lives don’t matter will also understand that when we say we want to stop men being violent against women, children and animals we don’t mean ALL men just the men that commit theses crimes.

No, I don't think the majority have been white males (not that skin colour has anything to do with it).

I'm a white female and am totally against it.

@toocold54

I actually think it is ALL men. And I’m someone who has a lovely father, brother and husband.

I disagree and actually don’t think it is ALL men but I do think many of them have a bit of something in them which they may not even realise themselves. You only have to read the threads on here about rape and violence and the men are now loving dads and husbands and the new wife’s are unaware of what they’re capable of.

I do think it is more of a mans responsibility than a women’s responsibility to try and sort this out.
For years women have asked to have similar rights to men but they are dismissed often subconsciously because of this built in hierarchy that men dominate over women. Even on here women are asking for help to reduce the violence but there’s people saying what about the poor men - it is built in us to think that men’s views should be held higher than women’s. So it’s actually going to take the men to take action because women just won’t be listened to.

But they can't have it both ways.

When I raised male mental health as an issue I was told in hordes from the feminists on here that it's their problem..

@LolaSmiles

As a joke it's hardly the end of the world. I'm by no means convinced that it's always said in jest though. And no, women have not effectively been asked to follow a curfew, just advised to take sensible precautions in the presence of a known threat, advice which they are entirely entitled to ignore. The fact that this kind of advice is issued to women, rather than men, who we know are significantly more likely to be victims of violence, probably says something about our sensitivity to violence suffered by women when compared to that suffered by men.

@debbiegotthejobandwelldone

The reason no one is able to engage in a discussion with you is you have misunderstood what this thread is about - so your posts are off the point. The OP started a discussion about the double think women have to engage in in terms of their safety, opening a discussion about how we fix that.

So what we’re taking about is - how to engage men as well as women in calling out aggressive behaviour towards women, and how to get men and women to recognise the micro aggressions women face and begin to address them too.

No one is suggesting all men are aggressive towards women, but what many of us are saying is that men as well as women need to call the behaviour out - because there are many instances where men can do a more effective job. What many of us are also suggesting is that many men - especially when young - do engage in micro-aggressions towards women, not because they are fundamentally bad people but because they’ve been taught it’s OK - and again, all of us (men and women) need to recognise that and start calling it out.

One of the points you are making - that women can engage in sexual assault and bullying towards other women is perfectly valid, and I am sorry you experienced it, but it isn’t what this thread is about. People aren’t engaging with you because of this. If you want to discuss that, the best thing would be to start another thread - I think you will find people will happily join you in that discussion.

@RootyT00t

Of course it is.

People are more concerned about the wording than of the crimes being committed.

Which is why White Lives Matter Too was invented and now #NotAllMen.

Of course men are men and are dominant in any race.

And no, women have not effectively been asked to follow a curfew, just advised to take sensible precautions in the presence of a known threat, advice which they are entirely entitled to ignore.
Don't worry ladies, it's not a curfew, we're just advising you to stay indoors at night if you want to avoid being murdered. Obviously you're totally allowed to ignore this wonderful advice, but if you get murdered or assaulted then it's on you for ignoring the advice.

The fact that this kind of advice is issued to women, rather than men, who we know are significantly more likely to be victims of violence, probably says something about our sensitivity to violence suffered by women when compared to that suffered by men.
Yes, it's totally about being being more sensitive to violence against women.

You're sounding a bit like a MRA now.

[quote toocold54]@RootyT00t

Of course it is.

People are more concerned about the wording than of the crimes being committed.

Which is why White Lives Matter Too was invented and now #NotAllMen.

Of course men are men and are dominant in any race.[/quote]
It wasn't white lives matter too though was it.

It was all lives matter.

The not all men campaign is perfectly valid.

It wasn't white lives matter too though was it.
It was all lives matter
It was All Lives Matter, because some people were very very much triggered by the discussion of systemic racism and the disproportionate number of black people being murdered that they couldn't resist saying "but whatabout the white people... why is nobody talking about the white people... white people matter too... I think you'll find ALL lives matter"