The problem with "#NotAllMen"

[TheABC]

I read this on the BBC and it beautifully sums up the doublethink problem women face in society.

*"...some people are keen to point out that it's a tiny minority of men who are attackers - using the hashtag #NotAllMen.

"The issue with the argument is that women can't win," says Daisy.

"They want women to not treat all men as potential attackers, but then we also are asked to keep ourselves safe.

"Keeping ourselves safe means that we have to see everyone as potential attackers because if we were to say, 'OK, not all men, we will treat everyone as innocent until proven guilty", that's when these things happen.

"And that's when people say, she should have been more careful.

"So it's really tough, because I think it's an attitude that's really built into society."*

Is she (and I) being unreasonable?

[quote Snog]**@Deathgrip* has it, it's not all men but it is most men* when you include sexist behaviour, micro aggressions and misogyny. It's not widely acknowledged and recognised because it's been normalised. We need to call it all out. Much of so called normal behaviour is not ok.

Four secondary school boys came towards me in the pavement yesterday four abreast taking up the whole width of the pavement and made no space for me to pass them. This is unacceptable aggressive behaviour. Men need to listen to what behaviours affect womens lives and change their behaviour. Most men think violence against women is nothing to do with them and most men are wrong.[/quote]
I agree therogue

Oh apologies

I was agreeing with therogue that snogs post was very good

and [men] deserve to be treated with as much respect as women

I don't think this is an issue tbh.

The vast majority of men are perfectly fine.

No they’re not. Not in my experience. Very few men are “perfectly fine”, actually.

Some men are gits/psychopaths but don't tar them all with the same brush.

There we go again. It’s not two disparate groups of people. Self-proclaimed nice men who get nasty when rejected, men who laugh along with sexist jokes despite not agreeing, the men who use opportunities like being on public transport to touch you, men who make assumptions about a woman’s availability for sex based on how they are dressed... just for starters. I don’t know many men at all who are “perfectly fine”.

and [men] deserve to be treated with as much respect as women

Ha! Men wouldn’t be happy at all if they were treated with the same amount of respect as women.

Men are viewed with suspicion because of centuries of women enduring and witnessing male violence. It never gets better. Never a day goes by without a story in the news about male violence against women. And they're only the stories that make the news. Random attacks, familial violence, "accidental" murder during "rough sex". It goes on and on and it seems women are still the ones expected to correct this behaviour. Women are still at fault. Being cautious of all men isn't misandry, it's an essential life saving skill.

@partyatthepalace thanks for all of your thoughtful and well-written posts. I agree with what you’re saying and I’m impressed at your patience.

@snog I don’t think you’re being misandrist. You’re right that the problem is coming from some men most of the time, but also from most men some of the time. Although I try to be on the right side of things, I know I’m just not perfect myself.

Asking us to open our eyes a little and to adjust our behaviour where we can is not hate. It’s a request to each of us to be a better man.

Why would any of us choose not to embrace that as an opportunity?

Boys excuse all manner of shit by calling it 'banter'.
It's not. It's her another way to control and belittle teenage girls. And it's ok cos you're a humourless bitch or frigid if you don't laugh. The teenage girls I teach hate banter, but as society tells them it's ok, they think they're wrong.

V enlightening chat with 6th form too, stemming from reading 17th c texts. All the girls had experienced harassment and took many steps to keep safe. They viewed it as the norm. The boys were horrified, but had never stopped to even think about what a different world they inhabited.

Very many 'nice' 'normal' men routinely sexually harass and assault their partners and women they know.

I've been sexually harassed by DH's friends and male relatives routinely for 'fun' it is so so normal.

My own fairly lovely DH regularly blocks my path for a hug when I'm in the middle of something or pulls me back from leaving, I got annoyed with him this week. It is ingrained.

I have also had far, far worse stuff happen to me between the ages of 12 and 23, which will stay with me forever.

@Chimoia

Schrodingers rapist, not all men are rapists but women don't know which ones are until they are alone with them. Or whether she is safer having a male friend walk her home or walk home alone, since most women know their attackers.

Given that I was raped by the male friend who was walking me home safely I have spent the last 30+years having to cope with NAMALT in a truly visceral way.

Which is why I hate the phrase and think very little of those who trot it out as some kind of talisman!

On Facebook it was pointed out to me that there are actually gangs of girls being reported walking around our local estate and I should consider just who is attacking who before I comment (they are mixed gangs or boys there are no girl gangs walking around our estate 🤔) a local mp has shared a status giving free self defence lessons to women she has been piled on by men and women insisting that men be allowed in to female only classes even she pointed out that women afraid of men will be unlikely to attend if men are allowed in "well they are just stupid because men who want to attack women won't be seen dead there" at a class full of vulnerable women all those lovely targets in one place i can't see an issue there at all

[quote YankeeDad]@partyatthepalace thanks for all of your thoughtful and well-written posts. I agree with what you’re saying and I’m impressed at your patience.

@snog I don’t think you’re being misandrist. You’re right that the problem is coming from some men most of the time, but also from most men some of the time. Although I try to be on the right side of things, I know I’m just not perfect myself.

Asking us to open our eyes a little and to adjust our behaviour where we can is not hate. It’s a request to each of us to be a better man.

Why would any of us choose not to embrace that as an opportunity?[/quote]
Thank you @YankeeDad - you’re saying much of what my DH has been saying the last few days while arguing with misogynists on Twitter.

I doubt there are many men who could reflect on their behaviour throughout their life and not recognise some instances where they have acted in a way which contributes to the problem, whether an overt act or not speaking up when they should. It seems acknowledging this is far too uncomfortable for many - it’s far easier to see themselves as good and other those who treat women this way.

Women don’t just wake up one day and decide to distrust men. It’s learned through years of experience with men, many of whom we did trust until we didn’t. It’s soul destroying to know these men, and to trust them, until they have an opportunity to turn. It’s soul destroying that it’s so common to be touched inappropriately on the tube that you just become resigned to it. We are acutely aware of the danger of being rude to men or telling them to fuck off that we end up walking on egg shells when a man approaches us in the street or in a bar. Women have been literally murdered for rejecting men in this way. But the common response - the anger, the abuse, the name calling - is bad enough to make us avoid a reaction.

I am reasonably sure that if men were the physically smaller / weaker half of the sex, and the other half were bigger, stronger and wanted sex with them (and often felt entitled to it), they wouldn’t feel safe either. I’m also pretty sure that men would not tolerate living with this sort of behaviour from others.

To me the biggest issue is the difference between male and female socialisation, the normalisation of downright predatory behaviour as “romantic” in film and television, and a lack of self-awareness in many cases.

I just think its a sad time.... just as we as a society have finally come to the realisation that not all Muslims are terrorists, we are now claiming all men to be rapist and murderes.... its a sad world we live in.

@Tinkat

It’s another form of silencing women standing up to male violence

No, it's about standing up to the people who use tragic events to stir up hatred, mistrust and discrimination against 50% of the population, the vast majority of whom have done nothing wrong.

Vast majority??! Lol! Good one!

Curious, I am so angry that happened to you

we are now claiming all men to be rapist and murderes

No we are not

I don’t think ive seen anyone say that, let alone a we!

I live in a city with a reputation for violence. I've witnessed quite a few violent incidents on the street. I've seen men attack men, I've seen women attack women and I've seen women attack men. In my nearly forty years of life though, I can't recall witnessing a single instance of a man committing violence against a woman in public. I'm not saying that violence against women doesn't happen but I think most men are aware (or are at least under the impression) that if they attack a woman in public, in front of witnesses, there's a reasonable chance that other people will intervene. So with the best will in the world, the opportunity to intervene just hasn't presented itself.

I do think there is a misconception that all men live lives without fear that comes from a place of affluent privilege. Many, many young men in deprived areas carry weapons out of fear. Fear that's strong enough to overcome the knowledge of the serious consequences likely to befall them if they're caught carrying one. And it's already been said on here but yes, looking at the statistics, men do seem to be more at risk from violence than women. Certainly, I've been subject to violent attack on several occasions. The fact that that risk mostly (although certainly not exclusively) comes from other men. really isn't relevant. If you're murdered by the hands of a man or a woman, you'll end up just as dead. And being a man doesn't give you a magical ability to influence the behaviour of other men.

I think in the case of street harassment, there is a serious problem that needs to be addressed. It isn't a problem just for men to solve though. It's a problem for society as a whole. Not least because women have the most to gain from it being solved and to expect those least affected by it to care more and do more than those who affected is a little absurd. I think a combination of public information campaigns (including through the use of respected male role models) might help. As may a review of legislation to ensure there is better protection and serious consequences for this type of behaviour. Victims of harassment have to play their part too though by reporting it and encouraging victims to report these incidences should form part of the information campaign. In many cases, harassment will have been captured by CCTV and those responsible could be identified. Police forces need take action to reassure people that their complaints of harassment will be taken seriously. It's a real problem and I hate the fact this happens to women so frequently.

When I hear about instances of harassment from women I know it makes me angry, it makes me wish I'd been there to stop it and it makes me feel powerless. What it doesn't make me feel though, is responsible. I'm not responsible for what other people do just because we've got something similar between our legs, any more than I'm responsible for something someone with brown eyes, a similar accent or the same skin colour does. Even if 99.9% of men were guilty of some form of harassment, I still wouldn't be any more responsible for it than a woman who hadn't participated in harassment. And quite naturally, it angers me to be blamed for behaviour that I find repulsive, haven't actually participated in and don't have any ability, as an individual, to prevent. A penis isn't a magic wand that you can wave to solve problems. Neither is it the mark of Cain.

I agree with everyone that dislikes the whataboutery and NAMALT.

The question I have is does making statements like "6pm curfew for all men" help or hinder women in moving forwards to a a society that is less tolerant of male violence and where women can walk around at night with no more fear than men?

Whilst I understand the sentiment behind the statement I feel we've been here before and need to learn that such things are just fodder for the male reactionaries. Attacking men as a class on social media and the like is not working in changing attitudes and I think may be further entrenching them.

Why not be more targeted in our anger at those with the power to tackle male violence - the police and government. Why are women tolerating a system where the police think that advising all women in an area to stay in doors after dark is a reasonable thing to do rather than a statement of their abject failure to keep the streets safe?

@Chatterbox1987

I just think its a sad time.... just as we as a society have finally come to the realisation that not all Muslims are terrorists, we are now claiming all men to be rapist and murderes.... its a sad world we live in.

Now you're just making things up.

@Chatterbox1987

I just think its a sad time.... just as we as a society have finally come to the realisation that not all Muslims are terrorists, we are now claiming all men to be rapist and murderes.... its a sad world we live in.

the problem with all extremist and outrageous views is that they weaken and ridicule the original point. Over-exaggerating everything is pushing away genuine supporters.

Any movement or discussion is completely losing any kind of credibility overall.

It's a shame.

But anyone who put down whoever dares expressing a different or milder view is clearly not doing anyone a favour.

@Chatterbox1987
I don't agree very many more men take what they want from women, the 2 issues are not comparable.

I understand why that comparison makes you feel comfortable, but it is the time to feel very uncomfortable. Time for nice men to see how they are complicit in this.

Men need to stop taking; taking comfort, taking gratification and the most widespread is taking time.

All of the above is about not seeing women as fellow humans with the same agency, ambition and intelligence. Women are 'not as important as men' in so many contexts. It is dehumanising and allows the jump to violence.

It is not any individual man's fault. This stuff is ingrained in us all from before we can walk and talk. We are all taught to dehumanised women.

Porn, lapdancing clubs, trips to Amsterdam Red light district are all totally acceptable and more prevalent than ever, that says a lot about the direction we are travelling in. I don't think men have any desire to address violence against women and objectification of women. I think the majority of men are more 'into it' than ever before

Do people campaigning to protect hedgehogs get constantly silenced by people saying what about the badgers?

Sorry, I should correct 'majority of men under 45'

@Cloudesley

Do people campaigning to protect hedgehogs get constantly silenced by people saying what about the badgers?

if the hedgehogs campaigners started ridiculous campaigns about putting all badgers in a cage or medicating them to ensure the survival of the species, they probably would!

[quote OurSurveySaid]@Silenceisgolden20

They can respect women and call out their mates when they don't

If only it were that simple.

Men will tend to hang around with men of similar mindset, so if he is of a mentality that is respectful of women then the chances are his friends will be too. Unfortunately, this means that those men whose mentality is boorish will also gravitate to similar men.[/quote]
I didn't say it was simple. You're looking for excuses.