The problem with "#NotAllMen"

[TheABC]

I read this on the BBC and it beautifully sums up the doublethink problem women face in society.

*"...some people are keen to point out that it's a tiny minority of men who are attackers - using the hashtag #NotAllMen.

"The issue with the argument is that women can't win," says Daisy.

"They want women to not treat all men as potential attackers, but then we also are asked to keep ourselves safe.

"Keeping ourselves safe means that we have to see everyone as potential attackers because if we were to say, 'OK, not all men, we will treat everyone as innocent until proven guilty", that's when these things happen.

"And that's when people say, she should have been more careful.

"So it's really tough, because I think it's an attitude that's really built into society."*

Is she (and I) being unreasonable?

Flowers just because you respect and value everyone isn't the point, lots of people don't.

Additionally, I don't think that's true is it? Do you respect and value the lives of child sex offenders and rapists? People who commit terrorist acts? Despots? Leaders of drug cartels etc etc?

I'm guessing not. So it's just words which haven't been thought out.

As for why all lives matter in response to BLM is a rubbish thing to say, can you take think if no reasons why? It originated in the the USA, I'm sure you're aware of their history and the regular stories in the news about police brutality and the way black people especially men are criminalised disproportionately. In the face of that why distract from the topic at hand (racism) and say all lives matter?

This thread is about make violence and sexual violence about women and girls.

I'm not sure what you've said but in the past I've heard :

Not all men
Women do it to
Men are victims too
Violence is a people problem

All of this things are fair to say. But when the topic is male violence against women, how does it further the conversation to say, effectively

Some people are violent to some other people.

???

Ok, I totally support BLM of course, is it wrong to also say all lives matter though? I thought i was being compassionate to.all.,

If I've said something wrong I apologise and will not say all lives matter again x

Ok, I totally support BLM of course, is it wrong to also say all lives matter though? I thought i was being compassionateto.all.,

Yes if you say all lives matter in response to BLM. It means you are not listening to the BLM point.

Saying BLM does not mean ONLY BLM. It is drawing attention to the social inequalities black people face, something white people do not experience at even a similar level.

Saying men commit the majority of murders and violence against women is not saying all men do. Its drawing focus to the inequality its pointing out the facts. To say NAMALT just shifts focus and ditracts from the very important point.

Which other lives are you thinking of? Just, all of them?

BLM is at response to institutional racism in the USA which too often results in death for black people who are just doing nothing in particular. But because they are black they are treated as immediate and massive danger and get killed left right and centre.

To say all lives matter in response to black lives matter is to move the focus from the situation under discussion- the situation for black people in the USA - onto all people. It is a pointless thing to say - different groups all over the world have different issues that need to be named in order to discuss, agitate for etc. So. What does it add? Who does it help?

And I'm really not sure that all lives really matter the same to even the nicest people. There are some horrible people about. Are the lives of eg rape victims in DRC to be treated the same as their rapists for example?

One of the troubles with All Lives Matter is that it is unfortunately associated with militant anti-abortionists, the sort who value every life until it is actually born -- at which point the life belongs to someone they don't care enough about to make sure that baby gets enough to eat or a roof to sleep under. It's tainted by that association if by no other.

It was once screamed at a doctor going in to work at a clinic where someone got shot a couple of days later for being a doctor.

I really can't understand why anyone doesn't understand why all lives matter is an active dismissal of the problems of black people that are raised by BLM.

I don't understand why this sort of thing gets people's backs up.

I'm white and have zero issues with black people or people from other ethnic minorities talking about institutional racism, the historical context etc.

I also have no issue with the concept that in a country like the UK, white people benefit from unconscious racist bias, nor that racism is real and common and can be vicious, just because I don't see it.

I wouldn't, would I.

So in the same way as it seems a fair few white people take this terribly personally for some reason.

So it seems that plenty of men, and women TBF, get the right hump when woman start talking about our experiences with men, and what can possibly be done.

Why do so many men take it so personally?

Rather than saying wow that sounds terrible I didn't know (although how can anyone not know after all these years?!) many say. That's a terrible thing to say. I'm nice. You're discriminating against nice men etc etc

I genuinely don't get it.

Is it a thing that these people really feel or is it just a tactic to try to shut people up?

In the other thread (which is only about 7 pages long) a couple of posters made 'ALM' posts, and were provided with explanations similar to the one provided on the last page of this thread (which they seemed to accept).

Then Flowers waded in with another 'All Lives Matter' post, which received short shrift.

She then made a further, non-sequitor post just saying 'ALM x' which seemed unnecessarily goady in context.

If she wanted to know why 'ALM' is, at best, dismissive, she could have read the explanations already provided on the thread, rather than repeatedly posting 'All lives matter'.

@Flowers24

Ok, I totally support BLM of course, is it wrong to also say all lives matter though? I thought i was being compassionate to.all.,

I'm sure you did.

I don't think anyone who says it doesn't know the implications.

It's just so silly. It's the same as saying:

The situation in Syria is terrible, what can be done?
All countries matter!

It would be really good to improve accessibility for people with disabilities so they can navigate life more easily.
People of all abilities matter!

Access to education for girls in X country should be improved.
All education for all people of all ages everywhere matters!

Meh.

I apologise x

Wow! ALM people don't usually do that!

Any view on NAMALT when it comes to talking about VAWG? I've not read your posts I admit.

I'm obviously coming across the wrong way and for that I am deeply sorry .

So you can see the necessity of talking at a class level when it comes to discussing issues is necessary?

Had a quick skim and I must say I'm impressed as you seem to have really changed your mind!

I've re read my responses and it looks bad, i.dont want to come across that way as that is not what I'm trying to be x

If you understand why NAMALT and ALM get up people's noses as much as they do just from this thread then that's really open minded of you.

I've never seen someone who said those things change their mind before!

flowers 💐

Flower i have a lot of good decent men in my life and many years ago I was in the NAMALT camp. I believed if I didnt say it I was somehow hurting or doing an injustice to all the good men I love.

I have come to realise the good men don't need me to fight for them. The good men know they are good men and they know that supporting the women in their life means they must end the hatred and abuse of women and girls at the hand of their fellow man.

@LastRoloIsMine

Exactly. That’s how it is with my DH and my two BILs. They have enough awareness to know that when we’re talking about male violence and misogyny, it isn’t about them!

I get it, I see it more clearly now, believe me i am not 'that' sort of person, i am just totally coming across wrong and i can admit that , i can now see why saying ALM is not right, i was naive.

All men need to sort it. All men need to step up. Even if it hurts your stepfather’s feelings.

I don't understand this logic.

If innocent men are expected to sort problems they aren't causing, why aren't innocent women expected to help out, especially when men are much more at risk of being a victim?

Let's be honest. Anyone who has lurked/been on here for a while knows that these threads always attract the same old gang of posters who slap each other on the back and shout down any newcomer who disagrees. I always know I'll see at least a few of the regular names on these threads.

But mumsnet, and especially the women's rights section, could not be further removed from the real world where most women refuse to identify as feminists (93% with 'man hating' being one of the most common reasons given).

I think this is a real shame but I don't allow myself to get annoyed by these people anymore. They're intent on painting life as a constant war of the sexes, but then you see the periodic revelations that they're 'overwhelmed' and are 'struggling with daily life' after immersing themselves with this imaginary struggle that most women sidestep in favour of a more positive outlook. It's still possible to focus on women's issues without all the martyrdom, self pity, and doom mongering that seems so endemic in predominantly white, middle class women.

But because they are black they are treated as immediate and massive danger and get killed left right and centre

I suggest you look at the official stats and think about who is killing who here. You may be a little surprised.

Things will never change if people refuse to see what is in front of them

Kitty can you explain a bit more please x

Also ..... Flowers I am loving how you've taken on board posters explainations