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AIBU?

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Original poster

The problem with "#NotAllMen"

999 replies

TheABC · 12/03/2021 21:18

I read this on the BBC and it beautifully sums up the doublethink problem women face in society.

*"...some people are keen to point out that it's a tiny minority of men who are attackers - using the hashtag #NotAllMen.

"The issue with the argument is that women can't win," says Daisy.

"They want women to not treat all men as potential attackers, but then we also are asked to keep ourselves safe.

"Keeping ourselves safe means that we have to see everyone as potential attackers because if we were to say, 'OK, not all men, we will treat everyone as innocent until proven guilty", that's when these things happen.

"And that's when people say, she should have been more careful.

"So it's really tough, because I think it's an attitude that's really built into society."*

Is she (and I) being unreasonable?

OP posts:
MistressoftheDarkSide · 15/03/2021 17:08

@LolaSmiles

I completely agree.

Pumperthepumper · 15/03/2021 17:10

There’s a really interesting thread here that hasn’t yet been invaded by fuckwits, although the night is young. Lots of food for thought:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4192785-AIBU-to-wonder-why-men-are-so-angry

NiceGerbil · 15/03/2021 17:17

So what I've got from some posters is that it's discriminatory and misandrist to sometimes treat men differently to women.

So if I'm about to walk down a dark alley and I see a man down there I should continue as I would if it were a woman, and it might make him feel sad if I don't.

If I meet a couple of women in the pub and get on with them and I go back to theirs for drinks after, I should also do that with a couple of men.

If some women I don't know that well say let's walk home together then I should do that with some men I don't really know either

I should leave my drink on the table when going to the loo as I'm mainly worried about a man tampering with it not a woman do I am exercising unfair bias

Etc etc etc

Rightho.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 15/03/2021 17:34

@LolaSmiles

It's the same old line that gets used because they (generic for posters with a particular agenda) must think that the more we have to repeatedly deal with the same bloody thing, the less time is spent examining systemic issues and shedding light on problematic elements of male (as a class) behaviour and attitudes.

Then after doing the same thing for pages, they (again generic) will say something to the effect of but you aren't even giving solutions... all you're doing is saying you hate men... maybe if you spent less time going round in circles online you'd get somewhere, do you not think that the reason you're struggling to get men on board is because of YOUR behaviour and your poor attitude to men.

Aka the reason societal level misogyny and normalised violence hasn't been solved is because women in an online forum haven't sufficiently thought about men's feelings.

I used not to know what DARVO meant. Then I encountered just these tactics being used against women here on Mumsnet, and educated myself.
Flowers24 · 15/03/2021 17:35

@Zevia

It's worth noting that Flowers is a goady little racist, dont expect to have a good faith discussion.
Sorry? Racist?
Crystalclair · 15/03/2021 17:48

I know I said I wasnt going to post again.. but I'm just so incensed.

To all those women with the 'perfect husbands' who agree with you.

How many women on here have said "my husband would never watch porn, he doesn't agree with it etc, or my husband would never do xyz" how many have come on to mn months later to discover their husbands secret porn addiction, or sleeping with prostitutes??

As much as we would love to change mens views on porn, respect etc, the reality is that many men (and women) will do it anyway, and lie to their wives, playing the 'perfect' new aged husband.

Educating men AND women is key, but you're deluded if you think this ALL MEN movement is going to make much of a difference. People will do what they want openly or behind your backs if they're that way inclined.

In this day and age you can not put it on one chunk of society to take responsibility and justify it because mainly women are victims. It's a HUMAN RACE joint effort.

Teaching our daughters that they shouldn't have to adjust their behaviours as it's a mans responsibility is plain stupid and unrealistic. Great in an idyllic world, but this never will be. We have to take precautions in life for many things, and seeing as a bad person will do something bad regardless, then its unwise not to teach your daughters to keep safe.

This doesn't mean I disagree with bring up and teaching respect and consent- but I apply that to both male and female. I also ask my son to do things to protect himself. Not sexist at all then is it?

Twistered · 15/03/2021 17:49

#notallmen #nobody is accusing all men

ironic in our patriarchal society that when women are hurt and murdered by male violence that we have women rushing to men's defence and victim blaming!!!!

Pumperthepumper · 15/03/2021 17:53

@Crystalclair

I know I said I wasnt going to post again.. but I'm just so incensed.

To all those women with the 'perfect husbands' who agree with you.

How many women on here have said "my husband would never watch porn, he doesn't agree with it etc, or my husband would never do xyz" how many have come on to mn months later to discover their husbands secret porn addiction, or sleeping with prostitutes??

As much as we would love to change mens views on porn, respect etc, the reality is that many men (and women) will do it anyway, and lie to their wives, playing the 'perfect' new aged husband.

Educating men AND women is key, but you're deluded if you think this ALL MEN movement is going to make much of a difference. People will do what they want openly or behind your backs if they're that way inclined.

In this day and age you can not put it on one chunk of society to take responsibility and justify it because mainly women are victims. It's a HUMAN RACE joint effort.

Teaching our daughters that they shouldn't have to adjust their behaviours as it's a mans responsibility is plain stupid and unrealistic. Great in an idyllic world, but this never will be. We have to take precautions in life for many things, and seeing as a bad person will do something bad regardless, then its unwise not to teach your daughters to keep safe.

This doesn't mean I disagree with bring up and teaching respect and consent- but I apply that to both male and female. I also ask my son to do things to protect himself. Not sexist at all then is it?

You don’t know if this All Men movement will make a difference because it’s never happened before.

The trouble with your theory is you’re starting from a position of ‘nothing is happening about this, nobody is doing anything’ and that’s not true. Women have fought for years to end male violence, and to keep themselves safe. Women have changed laws and funded refuges and charities to help combat the results of male violence.

And it’s not working. So it’s time for men to step up. All men.

LolaSmiles · 15/03/2021 17:53

I used not to know what DARVO meant
I used to think it was a minority of radical feminists overreacting because as a nice liberal feminist who was very much 'feminism is about individuals making choices'.
Then I read more, and listened more, and became a mother. When you start noticing and listening it no longer seems an overreaction.

Pumperthepumper · 15/03/2021 17:54

@Crystalclair

I know I said I wasnt going to post again.. but I'm just so incensed.

To all those women with the 'perfect husbands' who agree with you.

How many women on here have said "my husband would never watch porn, he doesn't agree with it etc, or my husband would never do xyz" how many have come on to mn months later to discover their husbands secret porn addiction, or sleeping with prostitutes??

As much as we would love to change mens views on porn, respect etc, the reality is that many men (and women) will do it anyway, and lie to their wives, playing the 'perfect' new aged husband.

Educating men AND women is key, but you're deluded if you think this ALL MEN movement is going to make much of a difference. People will do what they want openly or behind your backs if they're that way inclined.

In this day and age you can not put it on one chunk of society to take responsibility and justify it because mainly women are victims. It's a HUMAN RACE joint effort.

Teaching our daughters that they shouldn't have to adjust their behaviours as it's a mans responsibility is plain stupid and unrealistic. Great in an idyllic world, but this never will be. We have to take precautions in life for many things, and seeing as a bad person will do something bad regardless, then its unwise not to teach your daughters to keep safe.

This doesn't mean I disagree with bring up and teaching respect and consent- but I apply that to both male and female. I also ask my son to do things to protect himself. Not sexist at all then is it?

Also you can argue as much as you like that you treat your children exactly the same, it makes no difference at all if we don’t look at the root cause. Which is, again, male violence.
MistressoftheDarkSide · 15/03/2021 17:54

@Crystalclair

I am sorry you are upset.

I thought that the conversation was going in the way you describe, as in acknowledging the fact that while men have to be engaged and other men can help with that, women aren't daft enough to think they can't or shouldn't be part of the conversation.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 15/03/2021 17:59

In fact, as I'm getting a little irked now, can I also mention that women have been trying for years and years to change things politely and nicely and being kind, and are now asking men to actively examine with them the problems that affect men and women so negatively and devastatingly and engage a little more forcefully because nothing has changed up to now. So look, we're trying a different approach of asking both sexes to play their part far more consciously than before.

And it's not all about a bloody hashtag Hmm

MistressoftheDarkSide · 15/03/2021 18:00

Shit, I'm hangry. I really should eat now.

Flowers24 · 15/03/2021 18:05

well apparently im a racist! I am hangry too!

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 15/03/2021 18:16

@MistressoftheDarkSide

In fact, as I'm getting a little irked now, can I also mention that women have been trying for years and years to change things politely and nicely and being kind, and are now asking men to actively examine with them the problems that affect men and women so negatively and devastatingly and engage a little more forcefully because nothing has changed up to now. So look, we're trying a different approach of asking both sexes to play their part far more consciously than before.

And it's not all about a bloody hashtag Hmm

I agree completely
Pumperthepumper · 15/03/2021 18:52

@Flowers24

well apparently im a racist! I am hangry too!
I think that was in response to your absolute insistence on another thread that All Lives Matter.

Which I’m sure comes as a shock to absolutely nobody.

LolaSmiles · 15/03/2021 19:18

Which I’m sure comes as a shock to absolutely nobody.
I've not seen that post, but on the whole it is rather interesting how many NAMALT/mean women need to think about the men posters also seem to take the no All Lives Matter view.
Another poster recently said it makes an interesting Venn diagram. I'm starting to see what they mean .

MistressoftheDarkSide · 15/03/2021 19:27

I'm beginning to be a little concerned that there are things going on we don't know. Difficult to articulate without sounding like a complete loon, but given the explosion of opposing viewpoints, the social media traction and becoming aware of apparent "conspiracy theories" and possible outright lies disseminated from some sources, I'm beginning to wonder if this has been hijacked partly as a psychological experiment in a sort of emotional disaster capitalism - not just for money but to explore how best to push buttons and destabilise.

A real tragic event has exploded massively - it may be organic, but it is also ripe for exploitation by the unscrupulous with their own agendas.

Am off to dig around.

Flowers24 · 15/03/2021 21:16

How can saying all lives matter be racist? Confused , I respect and value anyone no matter what unless they prove me otherwise?

Pumperthepumper · 15/03/2021 21:20

@Flowers24

How can saying all lives matter be racist? Confused , I respect and value anyone no matter what unless they prove me otherwise?
Do you know what the Black Lives Matter movement is?
LolaSmiles · 15/03/2021 21:21

The whole internet is there for you flowers. If you're genuinely confused and not sealioning then I suggest you do some wider reading on the topic.

Diva66 · 15/03/2021 21:23

We know it’s not all men. Unfortunately it’s not possible to know which ones are dangerous until they attack.

DrSbaitso · 15/03/2021 21:27

@Flowers24

How can saying all lives matter be racist? Confused , I respect and value anyone no matter what unless they prove me otherwise?
I love a bit of transparently disingenuous rhetoric on a Monday evening.
LastRoloIsMine · 15/03/2021 21:28

How can saying all lives matter be racist?

If its said in response to BLM you are ignoring the racist oppression suffered by black people. Nobody is denying all lives matter but BLM is used to highlight the racial inequality and deaths of black people. Its is distracting from the campaign to stop black lives being ignored, overlooked, abused and ended...To say all lives matter is shifting the focus and dilutes the racisim faced by black people.

Very much like NAMALT.

Pumperthepumper · 15/03/2021 21:30

@LastRoloIsMine

How can saying all lives matter be racist?

If its said in response to BLM you are ignoring the racist oppression suffered by black people. Nobody is denying all lives matter but BLM is used to highlight the racial inequality and deaths of black people. Its is distracting from the campaign to stop black lives being ignored, overlooked, abused and ended...To say all lives matter is shifting the focus and dilutes the racisim faced by black people.

Very much like NAMALT.

This is a lovely, polite, well-considered, thoughtful and easy to understand response. I bet @Flowers24 will be really grateful you’ve taken the time to do this so they never embarrass themselves ever again by using ALM.
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