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Original poster

The problem with "#NotAllMen"

999 replies

TheABC · 12/03/2021 21:18

I read this on the BBC and it beautifully sums up the doublethink problem women face in society.

*"...some people are keen to point out that it's a tiny minority of men who are attackers - using the hashtag #NotAllMen.

"The issue with the argument is that women can't win," says Daisy.

"They want women to not treat all men as potential attackers, but then we also are asked to keep ourselves safe.

"Keeping ourselves safe means that we have to see everyone as potential attackers because if we were to say, 'OK, not all men, we will treat everyone as innocent until proven guilty", that's when these things happen.

"And that's when people say, she should have been more careful.

"So it's really tough, because I think it's an attitude that's really built into society."*

Is she (and I) being unreasonable?

OP posts:
LastRoloIsMine · 15/03/2021 14:57

mbosnz

The threads have prompted a discussion with DP and he asked me what it is we need men to do. I explained and he said men all men should be doing it anyway and going forward he will make sure he does his part to call out his family and social groups should he witness such behaviour.
I didnt throw myself at his feet in gratitude I just said thanks.

mbosnz · 15/03/2021 15:00

Yeah, I'm not saying 'be grateful', but I truly was heartened, especially inthe face of very vocal Whatabouterers and #NAMALTers, that there were some men that were prepared to come onto a fairly robust women's forum, put their head above the parapet, and ask, and support.

LolaSmiles · 15/03/2021 15:01

mbosnz
Same here. I know I've said it several times in the last few days, but it is funny how the men who want to listen and make society better aren't the ones feeling like victims when women talk.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 15/03/2021 15:02

@mbosnz

Yes, we have proof right there, of what we already know that indeed NAMALT and that our focus is why a Statistically proven disproportionately large number of other men abuse and murder women particularly, and also other men.

If men who are truly allies don't participate in the debate, we are denying them a voice in how things can be changed for the good of both sides.

NAMALT was deliberately used to immediately de-rail debate and focus us all away from deciding which actions might be most beneficial. I regard it as a bit of a red herring, and am quite convinced it's a deliberate tactic.

The women shouting NAMALT are actually doing this cohort a disservice by speaking for them without allowing them to have a voice too. Some may believe that they shouldn't have a voice because we can't trust their motives, or whatever, but we don't exist in separate universes. We co-exist with men on all levels. If we want men to truly engage and support us, we can't shut them out.

Over and over it has been agreed NAMALT. But it's not enough. It's more important for women to STFU and move over.

Baffling.

LastRoloIsMine · 15/03/2021 15:03

Sorry mbosnz I wasn't having a dig at you. I was more directing that towards those who think the men in their life should be praised for the slightest thing including strangers on the Internet Smile

overnightangel · 15/03/2021 15:07

@hiptobeasquare

We logically know it is not all men, but it’s like saying all lives matter.

Also, yes all men benefit from a patriarchal system in ways that women don’t.

Comparing the all lives matter thing to not all man is the basest conflation ever , you do yourself and others no favours by trying to oversimplify complex things. It’s lazy and reductive and unhelpful.
MissingLinker · 15/03/2021 15:09

The posters defending NAMALT:

Do you honestly think it makes a difference that you know lots of nice men who wouldn't hurt a fly? Do you imagine it would be any consolation for a victim of rape or assault or a homicide victim's family for you to go "Well, on the bright side, I know loads of men who wouldn't have done that!"

I have male friends, family members, colleagues who I think are good people. I think they're unlikely to assault or kill anybody. I find it hard to imagine them even catcalling a woman on the street. They might have done, I don't know.

But the fact that I know lots of really nice men meant nothing when I had men shouting at me and my friends in our school uniform, or when a man tried to pull me into his car when I was 13, or when I was raped at university, or when my friends were assaulted in nightclubs, or threatened and abused by boyfriends, or have men on stag nights offer them money for sex.

And every single perpetrator is a man. Men are the overwhelming perpetrators of violence and sexual assaults. It is a male problem and we should be able to say that without having to clarify that no, not every single man is a rapist. We know that. Men know that. If a man can say that he's never abused/raped/harassed/assaulted a woman then great. Good for him. He should know that people talking about male violence is not an indictment of him personally and he's got nothing to complain about.

mbosnz · 15/03/2021 15:10

@LastRoloIsMine

Sorry mbosnz I wasn't having a dig at you. I was more directing that towards those who think the men in their life should be praised for the slightest thing including strangers on the Internet Smile
No worries mate Grin
Devlesko · 15/03/2021 15:15

I'm more scared of women than men, let's try to get a curfew for 6pm for women who scare other women.
What a load of bollocks.

enigma16 · 15/03/2021 15:16

Just to reiterate: even men who 'would never' attack or kill women are frequently behaving in ways that are sexist and misogynist, including those who look away and don't challenge those behaviours.

LastRoloIsMine · 15/03/2021 15:18

Devlesko

What is it you fear about women? Do you fear they will rape and murder you?

Also I do not agree with the 6pm curfew.

Pumperthepumper · 15/03/2021 15:21

@Devlesko

I'm more scared of women than men, let's try to get a curfew for 6pm for women who scare other women. What a load of bollocks.
I already have a curfew - I’m told not to go out alone after dark, which as a runner, means I can’t run.

I’m not scared of being attacked by women then though.

Pumperthepumper · 15/03/2021 15:24

Comparing the all lives matter thing to not all man is the basest conflation ever , you do yourself and others no favours by trying to oversimplify complex things. It’s lazy and reductive and unhelpful.

@overnightangel I keep seeing this and I don’t understand it, the comparisons between NAMALT and ALM seem fairy appropriate to me as a way of highlighting how ridiculous they both are. Why is there so much animosity for this comparison?

overnightangel · 15/03/2021 15:31

@Pumperthepumper

Comparing the all lives matter thing to not all man is the basest conflation ever , you do yourself and others no favours by trying to oversimplify complex things. It’s lazy and reductive and unhelpful.

@overnightangel I keep seeing this and I don’t understand it, the comparisons between NAMALT and ALM seem fairy appropriate to me as a way of highlighting how ridiculous they both are. Why is there so much animosity for this comparison?

You’re seriously telling me you can’t see the difference between comparing the issue of the threat of one binary group to the other in real physical terms, and the multi-layered multi-racial context of BLM/all lives matter which incorporates thousands of years of cultural nuances in social/economic/criminological issues today ? Ok then. Like I say, it’s a really lazy comparison
Pumperthepumper · 15/03/2021 15:34

You’re seriously telling me you can’t see the difference between comparing the issue of the threat of one binary group to the other in real physical terms, and the multi-layered multi-racial context of BLM/all lives matter which incorporates thousands of years of cultural nuances in social/economic/criminological issues today ?
Ok then.
Like I say, it’s a really lazy comparison

Yes, that’s what I’m saying. The people who cry All
lives matter are exactly the sort of people who cry NAMALT. It’s lazy and boring and pointless. I don’t think it’s necessarily a big deal to compare how ridiculous they are to say.

Devlesko · 15/03/2021 15:50

@LastRoloIsMine

Devlesko

What is it you fear about women? Do you fear they will rape and murder you?

Also I do not agree with the 6pm curfew.

I'm not scared of men collectively, or individually unless I'm given a reason and I have never been given a reason. However, I've been racially abused by women, threatened, death threats and attacked more than once. Always by women, never men strangely enough. So, yes I fear women. Although it was much worse when younger with night clubs and pubs. Still happens now in my 50's, not quite as bad now, more verbal, but it scares the shit out of me sometimes, just walking locally.
CuriousaboutSamphire · 15/03/2021 15:52

As a linguistic trick yes, it is the same lazy twaddle, often intended to shame the reader into silence. Doesn't work though. In both cases it has the opposite effect!

MistressoftheDarkSide · 15/03/2021 15:55

@Devlesko

That's awful.

We have a very long way to go as a society to ensure people treat each other decently.

Flowers24 · 15/03/2021 16:01

Clear what up?

Flowers24 · 15/03/2021 16:03

I should educate my husband and son not to murder people? Errrr no, we should all be educated not to murder people ?

Devlesko · 15/03/2021 16:03

[quote MistressoftheDarkSide]@Devlesko

That's awful.

We have a very long way to go as a society to ensure people treat each other decently.[/quote]
I know, I wouldn't hurt anyone, but would at one time have fought back.
Now, at my age, I try not to walk about at all, day or night.
I know there are some awful men out there and that women are frightened, but I just think a bit of perspective is required here.
I think there's many on here who have a dh, grown up sons who wouldn't harm a fly. It's such a shame that all men are thought of as rapists and murderers.
To me it's sex discrimination as it's tarring all men with the same brush when there is talk about curfews.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 15/03/2021 16:03

@Flowers24

What it was you thought was a joke upthread.

enigma16 · 15/03/2021 16:04

It's a joke i guess?.so none of us can joke about anything these days , sigh

Was this in reference to Charlotte Church's story I asked you about?

Flowers24 · 15/03/2021 16:05

It is sexual discrimination entirely , I agree Devlesko, lets all start beating up men eh

Flowers24 · 15/03/2021 16:05

@enigma16

It's a joke i guess?.so none of us can joke about anything these days , sigh

Was this in reference to Charlotte Church's story I asked you about?

No was about jokes on sex, jokes about any group , jokes about anything seems you cant say anything now or have a laugh