The problem with "#NotAllMen"

[TheABC]

I read this on the BBC and it beautifully sums up the doublethink problem women face in society.

*"...some people are keen to point out that it's a tiny minority of men who are attackers - using the hashtag #NotAllMen.

"The issue with the argument is that women can't win," says Daisy.

"They want women to not treat all men as potential attackers, but then we also are asked to keep ourselves safe.

"Keeping ourselves safe means that we have to see everyone as potential attackers because if we were to say, 'OK, not all men, we will treat everyone as innocent until proven guilty", that's when these things happen.

"And that's when people say, she should have been more careful.

"So it's really tough, because I think it's an attitude that's really built into society."*

Is she (and I) being unreasonable?

Whilst there is definitely a discussion to be had around why men are so much more violent, if I were a non-violent man I don't know how obliged I'd feel to help after reading some of the posts on here.

So many posters seem to be clearly dismissive of men and their feelings yet expect innocent men to leap to their rescue, putting themselves in physical danger against a group (violent men) who they suffer more violence from than we do. If I was 4x more likely to be assaulted by a stranger as men are I'd probably not be too keen to do this.

I don't think it follows that violence against men can be dismissed because the perpetrators are also usually male. What about George Floyd or other racist attacks? What about when a gay teenager is beaten to a pulp by a homophobic thug? People forget about the attacker/victim dynamic when the man/woman class analysis comes out.

Blaming a victim for sharing the same sex as his attacker is still victim blaming even when the victim is a man. Perhaps we should be asking what we can do to help innocent men who get attacked if we are expecting them to do the same for us against our common enemy (violent men).

I’m out I’m afraid. You can reason with stupid woke people it seems. Best of luck getting men on your side by saying that crimes against them are not as bad and belittling the ones that are decent. Best of luck with that!

They absolutely do - young Muslim men are absolutely told what to do to avoid being guilty by association.

Yep.
I work in an area of my city that has a huge population of Muslims. Our council a few years ago did a lot of work with the community about radicalization and how to spot the signs and who to report to.
Places of worship and schools had information posters on display offering advice and support.
Imams were invited to work with the police and the council in a bid to educate not only their community but all who were in positions to sport radicalization. The Imams were integral in supporting this campaign and spoke openly and honestly to those within their community.

shrodingersbiscuit
There seems to have been an unusual number of posters on different threads who are very invested in pushing the 'poor men, someone think of the men' arguments at the moment.

@FleurPower123 You might want to re-read what you just posted.

Start at the top:

If I were a non violent person I would be put off offering help to someone in danger because some posts on SM.

Is that really what you meant?

And the rest is the same whataboutery that so many are trying to explain has not been said, is not being ignored, isn't what we are talking about!

Whilst there is definitely a discussion to be had around why men are so much more violent, if I were a non-violent man I don't know how obliged I'd feel to help after reading some of the posts on here
My husband is a non violent man, as are his friends. One thing that strikes me is that their response is to listen to the issues and they don't get offended or angry when wome discussion male (as a class) violence or women's oppression.

What I also notice is that none of the men I know who are listening and want equality claim they are victimised, claim that discussing male violence is a personal attack on them, claim that they just don't know what they can do because all the meanie women hate men etc.

[quote CuriousaboutSamphire]@FleurPower123 You might want to re-read what you just posted.

Start at the top:

If I were a non violent person I would be put off offering help to someone in danger because some posts on SM.

Is that really what you meant?

And the rest is the same whataboutery that so many are trying to explain has not been said, is not being ignored, isn't what we are talking about![/quote]
There's a reason 93% of women believe in equality but don't want to be called feminists. If you can't see the issues you may be part of the problem.

There's a reason 93% of women believe in equality but don't want to be called feminists. If you can't see the issues you may be part of the problem.

I don't belive in equality! My feminism doesn't want equality. What good is equality to anyone in real life?

To each according to need is not equality!

Nor is liberation from patriarchal thinking, which is the only way we will ever be able to counter patriarchal governance.

I dont think we need to explain why NAMALT is not helpful i think the OP does that perfectly well.

There will always be men and women who kick back and center male feelings above females safety. I belive enough time has been afforded to them and I would rather focus on the men and women who want to support the campaign to end male violence towards females.

In my community, our local mosque has worked really hard to prove they are part of the community and showed an amazing amount of tolerance and understanding of people's prejudices to prove that the actions of a few extremists do not represent the truly faithful.

Should they have had to? No. Because they weren't involved, nor supporting those who committed outrageous acts in their name. But they were gracious enough to recognise and deal with hatred stirred up by those with vested interests, both ideological and financial in sowing as much division as possible in communities. By doing this they protected themselves and the stability of the community. This is how problems are supposed to be resolved.

Peaceful, tolerant society's aren't good for a capitalist model. Money is made by solving problems. If a problem diminishes and affects the return, and a genuine new problem can't be found, a problem can be artificially created. I have watched videos about how to make yourself rich. An example is Geoff Bezos. He identified a problem, and was amply rewarded for it. He has the monopoly on that problem. Find a problem and market a solution. Create a problem, get it into people's heads by fair means or foul, and offer a solution. If it is a problem that makes people fearful, then people will pay a higher premium to solve it. Keep adding more and more nuance to the problem, your market expands. You make more money. There is a thing called disaster capitalism which exploits bad things for profit, because it's a free market and everyone has the right to make a living right? But everyone doesn't. Few people do. Those with enough power, influence and structure do. And they ringfence it here. Dubious motivations, morals and ethics are less important than profit. And when one transgression is allowed to slip though the net, they get more daring, more bold, because there is always a justification - "But this is just a bigger version of this strategy, and you didn't complain about that...."

Male violence is a problem. Women want a solution. Any solution proposed may be seen by some as a good thing, a bad thing by others. The one that gains the proposers the most advantage, be it power or money, will be pushed and pushed until we think it is the only solution. Social media and algorithms make spreading what is essentially propaganda so very easy.

You may say I'm a paranoid conspiracy theorist, but much of this is tried and tested economic fact, which should not be ignored.

However this genuine problem is addressed, and by Goddess it needs to be addressed, and should have been a long time ago, for the good of society all round, we have to be rigorous in examining who is offering the solutions, and whether the motivation is genuine or driven by something else.

There seems to have been an unusual number of posters on different threads who are very invested in pushing the 'poor men, someone think of the men' arguments at the moment.

^Indeed. And those of us who say that our DHs and friends don’t get defensive about this aren’t believed. Or we’re told that they’re ’virtue signalling’.

Whereas, in my DH’s case, he’s learned a lot from supporting the work I’ve been involved with and then latterly supporting me in processing the memories of childhood SA, and reporting it to the police. (The memories came flooding back when our DDs were small.) My BIL was similarly supportive of my DSis.

Decent men care about what it’s like for women. They don’t worry about their own hurt feelings.

Gosh the whataboutery started early on this thread. First post.

@ministry They are not doing this at schools and colleges though, are they?!

The Narrative here is that unless you have an opinion of the majority, then your input is not acceptable. Why have a discussion board if you expect everyone to agree all the time?

I pity those with sons I really do. My children have been taught to be respectful and fair in exactly the same manner. As human beings. None of this women vs men shit. We should be educating ALL humans!

I'm done with this now you'll be pleased to know. Feel free to have the last word if it makes you feel better about yourselves - I'm passed caring. I stand firmly by my views and wont be convinced otherwise. Sending love and luck! X

@ministry They are not doing this at schools and colleges though, are they?!

The Narrative here is that unless you have an opinion of the majority, then your input is not acceptable. Why have a discussion board if you expect everyone to agree all the time?

I pity those with sons I really do. My children have been taught to be respectful and fair in exactly the same manner. As human beings. None of this women vs men shit. We should be educating ALL humans!

I'm done with this now you'll be pleased to know. Feel free to have the last word if it makes you feel better about yourselves - I'm passed caring. I stand firmly by my views and wont be convinced otherwise. Sending love and luck! X

I know that NAMALT, I agree that I wouldn't expect all men to put themselves in danger of death to protect a woman against violence from another man, I agree that men who commit the worst offences against women and girls would be unlikely to listen to other men telling them it's not OK, I also agree that men and boys are in danger of violence too. (all points made in this thread in support of various #notallmen claims)

However, can any of us say that our lives would not be a little bit easier and less fearful if we could rely on ALL men calling out sexist or inappropriate male behaviour all the time unless it puts them in immediate danger? Eg. If I know that all the other men on the train will support me when I try to get away from the man touching my knee, if the teenage girl walking home from school knows that someone older and larger will call out the boys making comments about her body, if all non-rapist footballers make a stand against their peers who (even according to their own defence) have at best had sex with someone who they knew was too drunk to really consent.

Even if you look at this from the male perspective, we can't stop all men being treated with suspicion until the risk women face from some men becomes much smaller. Talking about this and calling out smaller inappropriate acts/words is a way that ALL men can do something to help- why wouldn't decent men want that?

I dont think we need to explain why NAMALT is not helpful i think the OP does that perfectly well.

There will always be men and women who kick back and center male feelings above females safety.

But isn't this a bit hypocritical when you're insisting that innocent men defend you from a enemy who is 4x more likely to attack them and 70% more likely to kill them? What about their safety?

But isn't this a bit hypocritical when you're insisting that innocent men defend you from a enemy who is 4x more likely to attack them and 70% more likely to kill them? What about their safety?

I have NEVER requested that a man defend me and risk attack.
Asking men to support women and change misogynistic culture within their own workplace, family and friendship group is not asking them to defend us. It is asking that they support us.

The sort of man who is happy to beat up a woman is the sort of person who might carry a knife to use against a man. If I had sons I'd probably tell them to call the police and avoid putting themselves in danger tbh.

I suppose if only the guilty need to sort it out and it’s not fair for men as a class whose voices will be heard way better than any woman’s then I might as well not bother trying to educate DS until he does something wrong and I wont have any discussions with DH because they are decent men so not part of the problem and why should they bother when it’s not their doing. I don’t know why you guys don’t understand no one has said it’s All men but it would be a huge change if all me. Involved themselves in being part of the fix. In the same way as we all have to be part of trying to fix racism as an example.

[quote Crystalclair]@ministry They are not doing this at schools and colleges though, are they?!

The Narrative here is that unless you have an opinion of the majority, then your input is not acceptable. Why have a discussion board if you expect everyone to agree all the time?

I pity those with sons I really do. My children have been taught to be respectful and fair in exactly the same manner. As human beings. None of this women vs men shit. We should be educating ALL humans!

I'm done with this now you'll be pleased to know. Feel free to have the last word if it makes you feel better about yourselves - I'm passed caring. I stand firmly by my views and wont be convinced otherwise. Sending love and luck! X[/quote]
The benefit is, nobody really gives a shit what you do and don’t do - it’s men who we need to step up.

Think how safe your boys will be if men end male violence. How different their lives would be.

Eldridge Cleaver said "You either have to be part of the solution, or you're going to be part of the problem."

Men, and women, and children, and little green bug-eyed monsters who do not recognise that there is a problem, and do not work to try to reduce that problem, are going to be part of that problem.