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Original poster

The problem with "#NotAllMen"

999 replies

TheABC · 12/03/2021 21:18

I read this on the BBC and it beautifully sums up the doublethink problem women face in society.

*"...some people are keen to point out that it's a tiny minority of men who are attackers - using the hashtag #NotAllMen.

"The issue with the argument is that women can't win," says Daisy.

"They want women to not treat all men as potential attackers, but then we also are asked to keep ourselves safe.

"Keeping ourselves safe means that we have to see everyone as potential attackers because if we were to say, 'OK, not all men, we will treat everyone as innocent until proven guilty", that's when these things happen.

"And that's when people say, she should have been more careful.

"So it's really tough, because I think it's an attitude that's really built into society."*

Is she (and I) being unreasonable?

OP posts:
IsisWalnut · 14/03/2021 22:39

I keep hearing 'Not All Men Are Like That' (NAMALT).

NAMALT is bollocks; unless men are consistently and actively opposing violence against women, harassment, porn, sexism and so-called 'banter' in male company then they are part of the problem.

How many of you 'enlightened men' can say you do all of the above all of the time because the women in your life live with the effects of sexism, discrimination, the porn culture and the threat of violence all of the time.

It's your toxic culture, it's in your hands to change it.

Crystalclair · 14/03/2021 22:43

@super that's irrelevant. My point being why should innocent men feel responsible as a whole when they havent done anything wrong. Why draw the line there? Why not a young black youths, or all muslims, etc. That mentality is wrong and counterproductive

Twintub · 14/03/2021 22:47

Hello @RootyT00t

Gosh this is going to go the way of the most men are respectful thread ....

Twintub · 14/03/2021 22:57

@Crystalclair

Groups like Muslims for example do lots of things and they are not individually responsible but recognise they can make a difference and are best placed. When white people as a class are told they need to tackle racism I don’t feel attacked or vilified because I’m not personally contributing to racism. I recognise that I have to do my bit when an opportunity arises. Men’s voices carry more weight and are in better positions of power and they should firmly lead the way. As an aside I worry terribly about knife crime I don’t let my DS or DD walk alone

supercee · 14/03/2021 22:59

@Crystalclair

*@super* that's irrelevant. My point being why should innocent men feel responsible as a whole when they havent done anything wrong. Why draw the line there? Why not a young black youths, or all muslims, etc. That mentality is wrong and counterproductive
It's not irrelevant when you, yourself have mentioned the different sexes.

The rest - it's been explained to you many, MANY times.

BeagleEagle · 14/03/2021 23:12

[quote Twintub]@Crystalclair

Groups like Muslims for example do lots of things and they are not individually responsible but recognise they can make a difference and are best placed. When white people as a class are told they need to tackle racism I don’t feel attacked or vilified because I’m not personally contributing to racism. I recognise that I have to do my bit when an opportunity arises. Men’s voices carry more weight and are in better positions of power and they should firmly lead the way. As an aside I worry terribly about knife crime I don’t let my DS or DD walk alone[/quote]
Right. The Muslim community do take responsibility for supporting young people at risk of being radicalised, of reporting anything concerning and engaging with the wider community on the risk of radicalisation and terrorism. I wouldn't agree that it's their sole responsibility, however it's clear that young Muslims are much more likely to listen to someone within their own community than the mainstream culture that they feel excluded from.

Also, men are more likely to listen when other men challenge their behaviour. Especially, if they don't have a huge amount of respect for women in the first place.

Twintub · 14/03/2021 23:15

_Also, men are more likely to listen when other men challenge their behaviour. Especially, if they don't have a huge amount of respect for women in the first place.

^^This is exactly what I mean

BaaMooCluckOink · 15/03/2021 02:35

I agree that men could be doing more to help. Not just men but definitely we could all do more to stop jokes etc that may affect how people behave. However people are not responsible for others actions. The problem is the way some people (maybe a minority) are jumping on this to further their anti-male agenda. Why is an ‘all men are responsible’ stance ok when all women/all Muslims/all black people/all gay people/all Americans/all trans etc would not be. You wouldn’t get away with this with any other group but men.

LastRoloIsMine · 15/03/2021 06:42

Baa

All men includes black men, white men, muslim men, Jewish men, American men, Catholic men....
Men are not a minority group.

It is not anti male to expect men to say no to misogyny.

UsedUpUsername · 15/03/2021 07:01

@TheABC

So I should centre men then, *@RootyT00t*?

1 in 4 women will experience domestic abuse and 1 in 5 sexual assault during her lifetime. (Home Office stats, 2019).

I don't think we have the luxury (as a sex class) to do that.

I think there’s a wide divergence of individual risk.

I don’t relate to stories other women here tell of repeated sexual assault. It makes me think that the risks are unevenly divided, and some women are at much greater risk.

But I’m not sure what those risk factors are.

Sarah’s case is scary in that she seems like she was randomly targeted by a stranger, it could literally happen to any of us.

But some of these stories of repeated assault from trusted individuals, it’s heartbreaking. But I just don’t relate to them as easily.

LolaSmiles · 15/03/2021 07:45

My point being why should innocent men feel responsible as a whole when they havent done anything wrong.
Here we go again.

If your son (like other innocent men/nice guys/insert any other phrase used to make NAMALT points) is confident that he doesn't take part in sexist jokes, he doesn't belittle women, he doesn't give unwanted attention to women, then great. If he challenges his male peers when they do engage in sexism and his actions are that of a man who challenges casual misogyny, then he should be confident enough to know that he isn't he problem because his actions are in solidarity with women. If that is the case then that's great, for change to happen we need men to be on board with challenging the sexism that is a poison in society.
In my experience, the men who acknowledge there is a systemic problem with male violence and women's sex-based oppression tend not to take it personally when women talk about these issues, nor do they churn out the 'poor me, I'm a nice guy, poor men' arguments.

If the nice guys, such as your son, don't challenge sexism, laugh along or are a quiet bystander then I can imagine it probably feels quite uncomfortable to hear women talking about how their actions as a male class perpetuate a system that normalises a sexist view of women. If they are truly nice guys then they will open their ears, listen and consider their own actions.

If their response continues to be 'poor me, but I'm a nice guy because my mates are just joking, I haven't sexually assaulted anyone, I'm an innocent man, women talking about the impact of men's actions as a sliding scale, why should I take the blame, it's not my fault, I'm scared because some women have talked about their oppression... but what about men who get murdered. Men get murdered too' etc, then they are very much part of the problem.

Twintub · 15/03/2021 07:53

Being murderer by a stranger is rare I don’t think that can be eradicated as that is mental health a psycho if you like. I know men don’t seem to feel scared alone but I worry about knife crime etc for my DS. I don’t blame Anyone for walking home alone we should all be able to and we have all done it. You just can’t guard against a psychopath . The case in my town the lady lived by a park she can home sober and got out of her car to go to her flat but was dragged into the park assaulted and murdered. But maybe a change in all aspects as we have discussed writhing male culture could help with all the other myriad of issues.

Pumperthepumper · 15/03/2021 07:59

@Crystalclair

My son has more chance of being a victim to knife crime (London) than my daughters do getting raped or murdered.
If men, all men, All Men, took responsibility for male violence, your son would be a lot safer.
Gingernaut · 15/03/2021 09:42

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/homicideinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2019#which-groups-of-people-were-most-likely-to-be-victims-of-homicide

If men and boys learned to stay sober, stay away from drugs, stay away from crime, learn to defuse situations and learn to walk away when things look a bit lairy, they'd stay alive.

Women need to stop being women, apparently.

Crystalclair · 15/03/2021 09:54

@Baamoo exactly what I've been trying to articulate, but you said it best.

Mittens030869 · 15/03/2021 09:58

*In my experience, the men who acknowledge there is a systemic problem with male violence and women's sex-based oppression tend not to take it personally when women talk about these issues, nor do they churn out the 'poor me, I'm a nice guy, poor men' arguments.

^This with bells on. My DH never feels the need to be acknowledged as a ‘nice guy’. Because he knows that it isn’t about him.

Pumperthepumper · 15/03/2021 10:07

If men, all men, All Men, took responsibility for male violence, your son would be a lot safer.

Hey @Crystalclair just in case you missed this.

Mittens030869 · 15/03/2021 10:28

However, there is an issue when it comes to decent men calling out sexist ‘banter’ about women. I genuinely don’t think the majority of decent men hang out with those men who would be making rape jokes in pubs. The men my DH is friendly with tend to talk about work, family or football.

But decent men (and women) do need to be called out on ‘victim blaming’, as this is sadly very common. They have imbibed the idea that rape victims who were drunk/wore a short skirt have played a part in what happened to them.

This is very important to call out, as it’s people like this who end up as jurors in rape trials, and far too many juries are acquitting alleged rapists.

2021ismyyear · 15/03/2021 10:34

Hang on are there other people that agree with me?! I was absolutely on my own on the other thread. I stuck up for my husband and son and the absolute witches over there were hideous to me.

Highlights included “gold star for your husband” when I mentioned the work he did for women’s rights. So basically when there is a decent man, you lot don’t want to know.

And someone asking me if I thought girls in short skirts deserved to be raped. Unbelievable.

I’m glad other people can see that it’s not ok to place blame on all MEN for the actions of some. You wouldn’t talk like that about black people or Muslims. If you do, you really should be ashamed of yourselves.

If you really want change... do something constructive that isn’t jumping on the latest bandwagon. Go work for the police (or are you all too busy bitching about them, holding “peaceful” vigils and trying to get Cressida dick out... oh the irony!!!!)

Crystalclair · 15/03/2021 10:39

@pumper. No, I didnt miss it. But thanks for the passive aggressive re quote.

I'm simply bored of repeating myself. That theory whilst idyllic, this doesn't appear to reflect the hatred I am seeing towards men including my son.

Whether you care to admit it or not, a lot of people jump on the band wagon without actually understanding what they're saying, therefore a lot of younger women are displaying anti men and hatred and delivering their 'views' in a negative way.

LastRoloIsMine · 15/03/2021 10:41

for my husband and son and the absolute witches over there were hideous to me.

Oh come on 2021 where do you get off calling women who disagree with you witches?

You are showing that you are part of the problem.

And someone asking me if I thought girls in short skirts deserved to be raped. Unbelievable.

Yes I did because the way you were talking about KK and how she advertises herself seemed like you believe if she flaunts her body in public she deserves to be sexually harnessed or abused.

I’m glad other people can see that it’s not ok to place blame on all MEN for the actions of some

Nobody is blaming ALL men. We are saying ALL men need to support women when it comes to male violence and misogyny.

Pumperthepumper · 15/03/2021 10:42

[quote Crystalclair]@pumper. No, I didnt miss it. But thanks for the passive aggressive re quote.

I'm simply bored of repeating myself. That theory whilst idyllic, this doesn't appear to reflect the hatred I am seeing towards men including my son.

Whether you care to admit it or not, a lot of people jump on the band wagon without actually understanding what they're saying, therefore a lot of younger women are displaying anti men and hatred and delivering their 'views' in a negative way. [/quote]
I don’t know why you think this non-existent hatred of men is worse than the literal murders and attacks carried out by actual men though.

Even if it was true that there was suddenly a massive surge in ill-feeling towards all men, which it isn’t, what do you think would happen as a result? What’s the society-wide result of misandry?

2021ismyyear · 15/03/2021 10:42

Crystalclair You cannot argue with this lot.

I quoted some stats yesterday about male domestic abuse (men being the victim). And got told I was making it up. They don’t want to listen.

2021ismyyear · 15/03/2021 10:43

“by actual men though”. Is that ALL men of some men?

Pumperthepumper · 15/03/2021 10:44

@2021ismyyear

Hang on are there other people that agree with me?! I was absolutely on my own on the other thread. I stuck up for my husband and son and the absolute witches over there were hideous to me.

Highlights included “gold star for your husband” when I mentioned the work he did for women’s rights. So basically when there is a decent man, you lot don’t want to know.

And someone asking me if I thought girls in short skirts deserved to be raped. Unbelievable.

I’m glad other people can see that it’s not ok to place blame on all MEN for the actions of some. You wouldn’t talk like that about black people or Muslims. If you do, you really should be ashamed of yourselves.

If you really want change... do something constructive that isn’t jumping on the latest bandwagon. Go work for the police (or are you all too busy bitching about them, holding “peaceful” vigils and trying to get Cressida dick out... oh the irony!!!!)

You’ve had the work that the Muslim community does pointed out to you loads of times, I can’t believe you’re still peddling that as an argument.

You also said your stepdad was ‘as much a victim’ of ‘discrimination’ because he couldn’t freely walk past a primary school whenever he felt like it. I believe you compared him to the young black man who was attacked by a woman in Central Park.