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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

The problem with "#NotAllMen"

999 replies

TheABC · 12/03/2021 21:18

I read this on the BBC and it beautifully sums up the doublethink problem women face in society.

*"...some people are keen to point out that it's a tiny minority of men who are attackers - using the hashtag #NotAllMen.

"The issue with the argument is that women can't win," says Daisy.

"They want women to not treat all men as potential attackers, but then we also are asked to keep ourselves safe.

"Keeping ourselves safe means that we have to see everyone as potential attackers because if we were to say, 'OK, not all men, we will treat everyone as innocent until proven guilty", that's when these things happen.

"And that's when people say, she should have been more careful.

"So it's really tough, because I think it's an attitude that's really built into society."*

Is she (and I) being unreasonable?

OP posts:

LolaSmiles · 14/03/2021 18:10

It's great hearing about these men who manage to understand systemic sex based oppression and male pattern violence without resorting to 'but whatabout me... I'm a nice guy. NAMALT!'

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 14/03/2021 18:18

Drink of choice (up to and including the Really Good brandy or whisky) on my tab for MrDrSbaitso and MrMBosNZ!

Zofloramummy · 14/03/2021 18:27

I think I’ve had a fairly average life, I’m reasonably attractive (or I used to be when younger!), I was a very straight laced, studious child. I was 14 when a family friend stuck his tongue down my throat at a party and then asked me to get off the school bus a stop early to have sex with him. I was 15 when my uncle (by marriage) assaulted me on a sleep over at my aunties. I was 16 when a man in a train in an empty carriage masturbated in front of me in the middle of the afternoon. I’ve had sex in relationships that I didn’t want to have, I’ve had sex when single that I can’t remember because I was too drunk. My experiences in early life led me to believe there was something wrong with me. That I must have some sign over my head that made me a target. It affected my self confidence and self esteem.

I’m now in my mid forties, the veteran of 2 abusive relationships and happily single. Do I trust all men? No. Have my experiences made me very wary of men? Yes. Do I think all men are the same? No. But they don’t come with labels, and as a parent of a dd it makes me very anxious that in my lifetime and that if my mothers too nothing has changed.

We are still expected to take responsibility for men’s actions; what were you wearing? How much did you drink? Did you kiss him, smile at him etc?

As a person who was abused by more than one man at the brink of what should have been the dawning of my sexuality I acknowledge that those experiences damaged me in such a way that even as a middle aged slightly plump woman I am still cautious around men I don’t know very well.

It isn’t right, it isn’t the world I want my daughter to grow up in.

DrSbaitso · 14/03/2021 18:30

Thank you all. Husband says thank you too. I got him the beer.

One last one...

"Well, husband, it is true that not all men are like that."

"Yeah well, of course it is. I mean, I'm amazing, right? That's obvious. But it's not the point, is it? The point is that too many men are like that and it affects your life. Why aren't you allowed to say so?"

"Well you could be murdered or attacked too."

"Well yeah, but it's not going to be by a woman who followed me while I was walking home, is it?"

mbosnz · 14/03/2021 18:32

Your husband and my husband would bond, I reckon.

Mrmbos says thank you very much, a glass of medium costed red would go down a treat. . . and he worries that the bar is set so low. . .

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 14/03/2021 18:33

He's definitely a keeper.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 14/03/2021 18:33

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

He's definitely a keeper.

They both are!

LolaSmiles · 14/03/2021 20:42

DrSbaitso
DH and I had a similar conversation.

Funny how there's men out there that manage to see the fact that male (as a class) violence towards is problematic, and discussions about it are in no way an attack on them personally.

Crystalclair · 14/03/2021 20:43

Oh how witty you are @DrS

My opinion remains and you will not shut me down with your 'hilarious' husband/ wife sketch to 'try' belittle my views.

Won't work my lovely.

Crystalclair · 14/03/2021 20:46

@lola , what about our young men who are heading to college tomorrow to face a lot of hate because they are male? Made to feel that they, on a personal level are part of the problem.

Fighting hate with hate is not the way, its creating more devision, so dont kid yourself that this is the way forward.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 14/03/2021 20:49

I think maybe you have missed a fine but important distinction.

Hating and not-trusting are not the same thing.

If I do not trust a random man walking behind me after dark, that does not mean I hate him. It means I do not trust him.

hth

Crystalclair · 14/03/2021 20:59

Yes, I agree however this has caused hate, and its happening whether you see that or not.

LolaSmiles · 14/03/2021 21:07

lola , what about our young men who are heading to college tomorrow to face a lot of hate because they are male? Made to feel that they, on a personal level are part of the problem.
It didn't take long for the 'poor men are hated just for existing' line to reappear. It's a predictable game of whack-a-mole.

Hate is very different to identifying that men as a class operate in a system where their actions on different levels play a in normalising women's sex-based oppression.

It seems like you, like others in recent days, can't tell the difference.

I hate to break it to you, but anyone who encounters misogyny and doesn't challenge it is part of the problem.

If there are men genuinely going to college feeling uncomfortable that people are talking about how sexist jokes/questionable ideas of consent/ demeaning women/disrespecting women are part of the problem then good. But that's not hate.

DrSbaitso · 14/03/2021 21:09

@Crystalclair

Oh how witty you are *@DrS*

My opinion remains and you will not shut me down with your 'hilarious' husband/ wife sketch to 'try' belittle my views.

Won't work my lovely.

The purpose wasn't to shut you down (how?) it was to show up why the BUT WHAT ABOUT THE MEN WHEN WOMEN ARE MURDERED claptrap is such, well, claptrap. Given the complete absence of any actual refutation in this crap and quite sour answer, I think it's worked absolutely fine.

I know your opinion won't be swayed. That wasn't the purpose either. Others will be reading and I'm pretty sure my husband and I reached at least some of them. It's about the audience, not you.

I admit I edited his comments a bit for brevity and rhetorical effect, but that really is what he said. You really, really hate that it was funny, don't you?

Crystalclair · 14/03/2021 21:11

Yes, well funny enough I do think poor man when it comes to my son, who is respectful and polite, yet is receiving hate messages from young women at his college, direct at all the young men there

I have daughters too. I'm interested in what's fair, not moving backwards and causing division

CuriousaboutSamphire · 14/03/2021 21:11

So you can see how women talking leads to men's feelings being hurt.

And you think that is worse than men talking leading to women being physically hurt.

Women's banter? Even using the now hackneyed patio joke, it's not as endemic, every day, acceptable is it?

Not like the boys will be boys shite! Take a compliment love; how's my not supposed to know when no means no; it was a joke, love!

There is a huge difference between women stopping and considering the casual violence they encounter daily and the unthinking, usually sexual, jolly japes, banter of men.

It defies all common sense to state that one group, women, identifying the group that daily harrass them in all sorts of small and subtle ways, men, is worse than the harrassment suffered.

And that's before you even start to consider DV, rape, assault, murder.

DrSbaitso · 14/03/2021 21:17

@Crystalclair

Yes, well funny enough I do think poor man when it comes to my son, who is respectful and polite, yet is receiving hate messages from young women at his college, direct at all the young men there

I have daughters too. I'm interested in what's fair, not moving backwards and causing division

Your daughters are receiving hate messages on a much grander scale, from a much wider world and with potentially much more dangerous consequences. And they're also receiving the message that they can't talk about it frankly in case they upset men.

Good going.

Flowers24 · 14/03/2021 21:19

All lives matter!
I agree not all men !

Deathgrip · 14/03/2021 21:32

Yes, I agree however this has caused hate, and its happening whether you see that or not.

No, this has not caused a lot of hate.

If there is any hate, it has been caused by the actions of men, not by women speaking up about what they’ve experienced.

If you want to allocate blame, place it at the feet of the men who have caused this problem. Because what you’re advocating right now is that women shut up and tolerate it, as we have always done, because if we don’t then we are being mean and harming innocent men. Forget the harm done to us, that’s just collateral damage in the protection of men’s feelings. Other men are harming them, not us.

LolaSmiles · 14/03/2021 21:33

Yes, well funny enough I do think poor man when it comes to my son, who is respectful and polite, yet is receiving hate messages from young women at his college, direct at all the young men there
Direct at all the young men?

If your son is receiving hate messages for merely existing as a man from his peers at college then I would suggest that bullying is reported to the relevant people and copies of these unsolicited messages hating on him for being a man are also passed on.

If you mean that some of the girls at his college have been sharing things on social media or discussing issues surrounding male violence and what men (as a class do) and he is upset by this and has taken it as a personal insult to him because he is obviously a nice guy who would never be part of the problem, then I would suggest it's a useful moment for reflection. If he can genuinely say that he doesn't contribute to a misogynistic culture and he always challenges other men who engage in sexism and sexualised comments about women, then he can stand tall knowing he is helping fight the problem. If he feels uncomfortable reading their thoughts on women's sex-based oppression because it's hit a nerve and it's highlighted that even as a nice guy his actions perpetuate the problem then it's a good time for him to consider his actions moving forward.

Deathgrip · 14/03/2021 21:35

@Flowers24

All lives matter! I agree not all men !

There’s that Venn diagram again... ⭕️

It’s pretty disgraceful to trot out “all lives matter” to women whose lives have not mattered to the men who have destroyed them, in the wake of a woman being murdered.

And again, who said it is all men?

Flowers24 · 14/03/2021 21:38

I agree not all men and fully support it.
Black lives matter, we all matter.

DrSbaitso · 14/03/2021 21:41

Let's put it this way. We do of course know that it's not all men. But when another woman is murdered, in a society where sexual harassment, assault and intimidation are commonplace, what do we think of "good" men (and their defenders) who appear to be more concerned about protecting their reputation as men than protecting the women? Who think the perils facing the two groups are equal?

How "good" are these people?

Out of vulnerable women and "bad" men, whose ends do these people serve better?

Crystalclair · 14/03/2021 22:30

My son has more chance of being a victim to knife crime (London) than my daughters do getting raped or murdered.

supercee · 14/03/2021 22:36

@Crystalclair

My son has more chance of being a victim to knife crime (London) than my daughters do getting raped or murdered.

And who would be the perpetrators of this knife crime? Males or females?

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