The problem with "#NotAllMen"

[TheABC]

I read this on the BBC and it beautifully sums up the doublethink problem women face in society.

*"...some people are keen to point out that it's a tiny minority of men who are attackers - using the hashtag #NotAllMen.

"The issue with the argument is that women can't win," says Daisy.

"They want women to not treat all men as potential attackers, but then we also are asked to keep ourselves safe.

"Keeping ourselves safe means that we have to see everyone as potential attackers because if we were to say, 'OK, not all men, we will treat everyone as innocent until proven guilty", that's when these things happen.

"And that's when people say, she should have been more careful.

"So it's really tough, because I think it's an attitude that's really built into society."*

Is she (and I) being unreasonable?

Or you could see it that not rocking that boat, not bring combative us what got us this far!

You know the old saw about forever doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome?

Or maybe SM has allowed a critical mass if angry and distressed women to find each other. So now the word "No!" is being heard by more.

Either way, reassuring one cohort of people that they are not part of a problem only guarantees their lack of engagement with that problem.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

Or you could see it that not rocking that boat, not bring combative us what got us this far!

You know the old saw about forever doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome?

Or maybe SM has allowed a critical mass if angry and distressed women to find each other. So now the word "No!" is being heard by more.

Either way, reassuring one cohort of people that they are not part of a problem only guarantees their lack of engagement with that problem.

So you think that being aggressive about innocent men will help them engage, do you?

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, jelly nailing has ceased!

@RootyT00t

And actually sink, If you do reading instead of skipping around with glee at how clever you are, youl find that I have responded to many posts over the last two days listening to and empathising with their experience.

It's easy to paint a stranger on the internet to be a total arsehole, but doesn't make it true.

You’ve certainly made it very easy. I have done that thing you called reading - you have a strange definition of empathy.

I know what you have chosen - actively thought about, chosen and decided - to write on a thread about this topic.

Sink lay down your hammer. The jelly is not for nailing, just as cats are not for herding!

Right, but you have negated to mention my many empathetic and sympathetic responses to people with stories about their past with men.

Not that I care, you can paint me out how you like.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

Sink lay down your hammer. The jelly is not for nailing, just as cats are not for herding!

Are you under the impression you're being clever or funny?

So you think that being aggressive about innocent men will help them engage, do you?

There has been at least one man on this thread who has engaged and shared our anger.

Not all men are shouting about how unfair our response is. I’ve seen plenty of social media posts from men over the last few days who completely agree with the “aggressive” comments. And yikes, that old chestnut - you can shove your tone policing, frankly.

@SinkGirl

So you think that being aggressive about innocent men will help them engage, do you?

There has been at least one man on this thread who has engaged and shared our anger.

Not all men are shouting about how unfair our response is. I’ve seen plenty of social media posts from men over the last few days who completely agree with the “aggressive” comments. And yikes, that old chestnut - you can shove your tone policing, frankly.

Excellent. Good luck with it. It has worked do well so far.

There has been at least one man on this thread who has engaged and shared our anger.

Not all men are shouting about how unfair our response is. I’ve seen plenty of social media posts from men over the last few days who completely agree with the “aggressive” comments. And yikes, that old chestnut - you can shove your tone policing, frankly.
This.
One I saw from a friend can be roughly summarised as 'Dads, if you're not angry then you're not paying attention. Do you really think we should accept our daughters being subjected to this?"

And one day, one glorious day (yeah right), maybe we won't have to ask some men if they would be happy if this happened to their wife, daughter or mother. . . we won't have to frame it as one of 'their women', rather than 'any woman'.

mbosnz
I agree with you, but for now I'm happy when men point out that instead of these attacks being a stranger on the telly, it could be their friends' wives/sisters/mothers/daughters. If it makes more men sit up and realise that it could be the women in their lives then it's a positive move because sadly we both know that too often men will listen more if a view comes from a man.

We need men of all ages and classes to get away from the idea that sleazy banter is funny, sending dick pics is fine, and a generally totally entitled mysogonistic viewpoint towards housework, what happens on tour stays on tour , porn viewing and childcare that many perfectly ok blokes on the surface have when they also have a partner/marriage. It is creating a great deal of mistrust between the sexes I feel and quite rightly. Yep we are into Not all men territory here I know , but I see enough threads on here to know that many men treat their partners and children like an inconvenient afterthought and their wife/partner like an unpaid servant yet expect them to be bringing home money too. It means many women not only don’t feel 100% safe out there but they don’t feel that safe at home either. I do feel for men who aren’t remotely like this but I think they need to realise the amount of general shittiness going on— and not ‘join In with it’ as it’s just banter when with mates etc.

@LolaSmiles

mbosnz I agree with you, but for now I'm happy when men point out that instead of these attacks being a stranger on the telly, it could be their friends' wives/sisters/mothers/daughters. If it makes more men sit up and realise that it could be the women in their lives then it's a positive move because sadly we both know that too often men will listen more if a view comes from a man.

Absolutely! It's a starting point. . .

I wouldn't normally be that poster but given the circumstances...I asked my husband what he thought.

"Husband, are you worried about the murder of Sarah Everard being used to stoke misandry?"

"What?"

"Are you worried about man haters using the murder of Sarah Everard to push their man hating?"

"Is this a serious question?

"Yes."

"Are you on Mumsnet again?"

"Yes."

"Fuck me. Is it women complaining about this?"

"As far as I can tell. They say they are."

"A woman got murdered and they're worried about the impact on men?"

"Yes. They say they're dissenting voices in an echo chamber, protectors of innocent men."

"What?"

"And they say we are wrong to suggest that Sarah Everard's murder has anything to do with women more widely, and we're the bad guys."

"WHAT?"

"So what do you think?"

"I think we're about 50 years further behind than I thought, is what I think. What bollocks. Are you passing this on to them? Use that word. Bollocks. Absolute bollocks."

"Thank you darling, I love you."

"I love you too. Bollocks. Bollocks. Bollocks."

Addendum: He's now wandering around the house saying, "Namalt, that's what it is, isn't it? Oh yeah. Namalt. Bollocks bollocks bollocks."

I guess now that your husband has spoken, anyone with an opposing opinion should zip it.

I will stand up for my daughter,
I will also stand up for my son.

If you honestly think this all men movement will stop bad people doing bad things, then I feel you are ever so slightly naive.

Fist bump to Mr DrSbaitso! (Socially distanced of course).

MrMBosNZ has been doing similar ranting and muttering. (Although apparently he already knew I was on MN by my colour and the typing. . .)

😁 Mine is working away at the moment, but we had a similar conversation mid week.

I guess now that your husband has spoken, anyone with an opposing opinion should zip it.

You said it, not me. Or him.

I do feel for you @DrS 😂

Oh! Even with the initial caveat, and when posted without any such intention, no 'just checking my thinking'

Never mind, aye?

OK, I asked him if he thought you should shut up because he's spoken.

"That's what they took from it? Way to miss the point. Are they trying to be obtuse? Uh, actually, I mean, yes. Of course they should shut up, because I'm a man. That's exactly what I said. Now get me a beer, woman. And remember, namalt. Why are you even bothering? Bollocks."

I hope it's obvious why I married him, but it's clear some people will be scratching their heads.

😁

Hands that man a beer.

I'm telling this man to 'get me a wine'. . (please)