The problem with "#NotAllMen"

[TheABC]

I read this on the BBC and it beautifully sums up the doublethink problem women face in society.

*"...some people are keen to point out that it's a tiny minority of men who are attackers - using the hashtag #NotAllMen.

"The issue with the argument is that women can't win," says Daisy.

"They want women to not treat all men as potential attackers, but then we also are asked to keep ourselves safe.

"Keeping ourselves safe means that we have to see everyone as potential attackers because if we were to say, 'OK, not all men, we will treat everyone as innocent until proven guilty", that's when these things happen.

"And that's when people say, she should have been more careful.

"So it's really tough, because I think it's an attitude that's really built into society."*

Is she (and I) being unreasonable?

Thanks to all the NAMALTers for reminding me how far we have to go. I’ve made myself a couple of little paper cuts this morning to hang in my work corner and cheer me up.

I’ve said numerous times that I’m married to a man who isn’t at all like that. He’s as angry as anyone about violence against women, because of what my siblings and I went through as children and as a father of DDs. And obviously my DH isn’t a one off, there will be a lot of decent men who are equally angry
I said something similar on a thread and Rooty decided to accuse my husband of virtue signalling.

Apparently despite saying NAMALT regularly regarding women's oppression and feeling the need to defend men from nasty feminist women, Rooty knows my husband is a virtue signaller for being a man who, like your DH, stands in solidarity with women. I've still not worked out how that works. 🤷‍♀️

@LolaSmiles

I remember that, yes. Apparently, it’s impossible to believe that men might genuinely feel disgust at the actions of other men against women, they must all feel insulted and hurt.

[quote Mittens030869]@RootyT00t

Okay, I should have said ‘several’ not ‘lots of’ posters. But judging by the number of women who went to the vigil, there are a lot of women who are angry. Not at men for being men. I’ve said numerous times that I’m married to a man who isn’t at all like that. He’s as angry as anyone about violence against women, because of what my siblings and I went through as children and as a father of DDs. And obviously my DH isn’t a one off, there will be a lot of decent men who are equally angry.

It clearly isn’t just about Sarah, and FWIW, I think we should back off now to give her family a chance to grieve and to allow the police to investigate.

But there have been far too many rapes and sexual assaults that haven’t led to convictions. It’s no wonder that women are angry. I’ve been there, none of my abusers were.convicted though admittedly this is mainly because my F is dead.

This is a tipping point. Women have finally had enough of male violence and want there to be genuine change.[/quote]
Oh bless you on that history , I mean that.

But I don't believe it's a tipping point I believe it's an opportunity.

Look at the absolute chaos which unfolded after BLM. We are not learning.

@LolaSmiles

I’ve said numerous times that I’m married to a man who isn’t at all like that. He’s as angry as anyone about violence against women, because of what my siblings and I went through as children and as a father of DDs. And obviously my DH isn’t a one off, there will be a lot of decent men who are equally angry I said something similar on a thread and Rooty decided to accuse my husband of virtue signalling.

Apparently despite saying NAMALT regularly regarding women's oppression and feeling the need to defend men from nasty feminist women, Rooty knows my husband is a virtue signaller for being a man who, like your DH, stands in solidarity with women. I've still not worked out how that works. 🤷‍♀️

Talking about me AGAIN, Lola. For someone who thinks I shouldn't have any airtime you do that quite a lot.

@SinkGirl

Thanks to all the NAMALTers for reminding me how far we have to go. I’ve made myself a couple of little paper cuts this morning to hang in my work corner and cheer me up.

Are NAMALTers all the same then? Are feminists?

They are the same insofar as they have to derail an important discussion, yes. Obviously they are not identical humans.

@SinkGirl

They are the same insofar as they have to derail an important discussion, yes. Obviously they are not identical humans.

Derailing a discussion, or giving another side to am echo chamber.

Rooty, have you wondered why it's so much easier for you to derail discussions and defame other posters, all in a cloud of baseless self-congratulation, than it is to argue your point? (Which appears to be that when women are murdered, men are victims?)

@DrSbaitso

Rooty, have you wondered why it's so much easier for you to derail discussions and defame other posters, all in a cloud of baseless self-congratulation, than it is to argue your point? (Which appears to be that when women are murdered, men are victims?)

I certainly am not self congratulating.

I have defamed one poster and I stand by it.

No, that isn't my argument at all, and I've never actually said that.

The reason it's easier for you guys is because we are in the wake of a murdered woman, so that is blindlingly obvious

Derailing a discussion, or giving another side to am echo chamber.

🤦‍♀️

@SinkGirl

Derailing a discussion, or giving another side to am echo chamber.

🤦‍♀️

True though.

You call it derailing because we arent sitting by and taking the bullshit.

Derailing a discussion, or giving another side to am echo chamber
And yet it was a NAMALT poster yesterday who seemed to think that differing opinions within a group of feminists was a 'gotcha' moment.

When women are concerned about women's sex based oppression it's perhaps unsurprising that whilst they may have different views on a range of topics within this area, they're probably going to be quite united in the face of some posters routinely denying the need to centre women's oppression, routinely trying to derail to focus on men, routinely saying but what about men.

That's not an echo chamber.
That's a range of women with different perspectives and experiences who happen to take an issue with those who seek to turn any discussion of women's sex based oppression into a 'meanie women, poor men' thread.

@LolaSmiles

Derailing a discussion, or giving another side to am echo chamber And yet it was a NAMALT poster yesterday who seemed to think that differing opinions within a group of feminists was a 'gotcha' moment.

When women are concerned about women's sex based oppression it's perhaps unsurprising that whilst they may have different views on a range of topics within this area, they're probably going to be quite united in the face of some posters routinely denying the need to centre women's oppression, routinely trying to derail to focus on men, routinely saying but what about men.

That's not an echo chamber.
That's a range of women with different perspectives and experiences who happen to take an issue with those who seek to turn any discussion of women's sex based oppression into a 'meanie women, poor men' thread.

I didn't agree with the gotcha moment and said that at the time.

But we at NAMAlT hq also have differing experiences, and life perspectives, yet there's been a handful of 'oj here they come the NAMAlT we've seen it all before ' today alone.

I certainly am not self congratulating.

You certainly are and I am embarrassed for you. You're congratulating yourself for "calling out" people who have demonstrably done nothing wrong, and presenting yourself as the lone voice of reason in an echo chamber when you're actually just derailing, perpetuating a personal dispute and talking nonsense.

Thereason it's easier for you guys is because we are in the wake of a murdered woman, so that is blindlingly obvious

Well yes, when a woman is murdered by a man, as most murder victims are, this evil act does indeed make it "easier" to make cases about cultural and societal misogyny, who tends to commit it and what we should do about it. It is indeed blindingly obvious why that would be "easier" than trying to claim that men are the ones being treated unfairly. And why it's easier for you to drag the discussion on for pages and pages about your personal beef with someone else than to defend your case, such as it is.

And you still can't see why. But we can all see you.

@DrSbaitso

I certainly am not self congratulating.

You certainly are and I am embarrassed for you. You're congratulating yourself for "calling out" people who have demonstrably done nothing wrong, and presenting yourself as the lone voice of reason in an echo chamber when you're actually just derailing, perpetuating a personal dispute and talking nonsense.

Thereason it's easier for you guys is because we are in the wake of a murdered woman, so that is blindlingly obvious

Well yes, when a woman is murdered by a man, as most murder victims are, this evil act does indeed make it "easier" to make cases about cultural and societal misogyny, who tends to commit it and what we should do about it. It is indeed blindingly obvious why that would be "easier" than trying to claim that men are the ones being treated unfairly. And why it's easier for you to drag the discussion on for pages and pages about your personal beef with someone else than to defend your case, such as it is.

And you still can't see why. But we can all see you.

You certainly are and I am embarrassed for you. You're congratulating yourself for "calling out" people who have demonstrably done nothing wrong, and presenting yourself as the lone voice of reason in an echo chamber when you're actually just derailing, perpetuating a personal dispute and talking nonsens

Wrong again.

The other person also responded to said beef, in fact started said beef, which ended quite a while ago but you still feel the need to mention it, all because I told you what you were doing wasn't cricket pages and pages ago.

You can think you see me, but given that you're completely wrong, it's a bit embarrassing on your part.

Ps - your entire post here is exactly what you are accusing me of.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Tonto and the Lone Ranger continue to nail jelly to the ceiling.

Batman and Robin are busy in Gotham herding cats.

It is derailing because there are women here talking about their experiences which you are shutting down repeatedly with “yeah, but it’s not all men though”.

When you say “echo chamber” what you mean is a thread full of abused women talking about it. How weird that this makes you feel sorry for men.

You know exactly what you are doing, and it is indeed embarrassing.

@SinkGirl

It is derailing because there are women here talking about their experiences which you are shutting down repeatedly with “yeah, but it’s not all men though”.

When you say “echo chamber” what you mean is a thread full of abused women talking about it. How weird that this makes you feel sorry for men.

You know exactly what you are doing, and it is indeed embarrassing.

Whatever.

You know nothing about my past, abuse or otherwise.

And actually sink, If you do reading instead of skipping around with glee at how clever you are, youl find that I have responded to many posts over the last two days listening to and empathising with their experience.

It's easy to paint a stranger on the internet to be a total arsehole, but doesn't make it true.

Shutting people down with the 'it's not all men though' is displaying empathy?!!! I'm embarrassed for you too.

Still shaking my head at "the reason it's easier for you guys is because we are in the wake of a murdered woman". Yes, when women are murdered, it does make bullshit "points" about men being the victims much harder to defend. How irritating that must be!

I would ask if you could hear yourself, but the answer is obvious.

@supercee

Shutting people down with the 'it's not all men though' is displaying empathy?!!! I'm embarrassed for you too.

But I didn't do that to anyone, but thanks.

@DrSbaitso

Still shaking my head at "the reason it's easier for you guys is because we are in the wake of a murdered woman". Yes, when women are murdered, it does make bullshit "points" about men being the victims much harder to defend. How irritating that must be!

I would ask if you could hear yourself, but the answer is obvious.

Shake away.

The reason I guess that a lot of people who are saying NAMALT, is not because they dont empathise with women who have been assaulted, or that we dont care about our safety or the safety of others, but it's a HUGE step back in the name of equality!

Agreed it's not equal for women right now, but the solution is not to disregard a huge chunk of society and stereotype them 'just incase'

This is exactly what seems to be happening, and whilst I dont know exactly what the solution is, this isn't it. It's not forward thinking to have this men vs women attitude because that is exactly what is happening right now.