The problem with "#NotAllMen"

[TheABC]

I read this on the BBC and it beautifully sums up the doublethink problem women face in society.

*"...some people are keen to point out that it's a tiny minority of men who are attackers - using the hashtag #NotAllMen.

"The issue with the argument is that women can't win," says Daisy.

"They want women to not treat all men as potential attackers, but then we also are asked to keep ourselves safe.

"Keeping ourselves safe means that we have to see everyone as potential attackers because if we were to say, 'OK, not all men, we will treat everyone as innocent until proven guilty", that's when these things happen.

"And that's when people say, she should have been more careful.

"So it's really tough, because I think it's an attitude that's really built into society."*

Is she (and I) being unreasonable?

Things my boys said to me last night when trying to have this discussion

• yes, but more men are subject to violence
• I wouldnt let my girlfriend go out a night along (thinking he is protective and kind
• my GF's parents were terrible letting her ride her bike alone along the beach late at night when she was a kid
• men are naturally stronger than women so they appear threatening
• am I a perve if I say a little girl will be gorgeous when she is older?

These lads are so confused.

I don't want to report anyone. I just want people not to be so spiteful to one another, based on their views

Maybe you should take your own advice.

You are very vocal with your views Rooty as is your right. You do not hide the fact that you are a huge supporter of males and you think women who discuss feminisim and the issues females face are nasty men hating bullies.

You see some posters as spiteful I see them simply disagreeing with you.

@LastRoloIsMine

I don't want to report anyone. I just want people not to be so spiteful to one another, based on their views

Maybe you should take your own advice.

You are very vocal with your views Rooty as is your right. You do not hide the fact that you are a huge supporter of males and you think women who discuss feminisim and the issues females face are nasty men hating bullies.

You see some posters as spiteful I see them simply disagreeing with you.

No, I don't think that women who discuss feminism and issues are nasty men hating bullies, but I think some are.

People are welcome to disagree with me, absolutely.

I only have an issue with behaviour. But I've said that several times Lola.

No, I don't think that women who discuss feminism and issues are nasty men hating bullies, but I think some are

Why? Why are some men hating bullies and some not?

@LastRoloIsMine

No, I don't think that women who discuss feminism and issues are nasty men hating bullies, but I think some are

Why? Why are some men hating bullies and some not?

As I've said many times, the way they express those views, the language they used, the way they treat other people.

As I've said many times, the way they express those views, the language they used, the way they treat other people.

So unless women talk in a way you approve of you deem them bullies and man hating?

So women must have their language controlled?
They cannot express anger or disgust or passion?
They must speak kindly at all times?

You are very vocal with your views Rooty as is your right. You do not hide the fact that you are a huge supporter of males and you think women who discuss feminisim and the issues females face are nasty men hating bullies.

You see some posters as spiteful I see them simply disagreeing with you

I agree.

For what it's worth many of us so called man hating toxic feminists have repeatedly said (across several threads) that we think toxic masculinity is bad for men and feeds into issues of men's mental health and men's suicide rates. Many posters have also said they would support campaigns to raise the profile of men's suicide and other related issues.
Posters have just objected to discussions of women's struggles being taken over by 'what about men'. Hardly man hating.

I only have an issue with behaviour. But I've said that several times Lola
You do realise that you weren't even replying to me here.

RootyT00t

Sorry but I am really beginning to lose patience with you. Please don't derail these important conversations by taking over every thread with you petty bickering. We get your point. Now can you go make yourself a cup of coffee or something?

I can't find it anywhere online but I once saw a quote which I thought was spot on along the lines of:

Misogyny involves men wanting to silence women, hurt them, harm them, did them, ruin their lives. Misogynists want to destroy women.

Misandrists have no interest in destroying men - they simply don't want to be around them, they want to be left alone.

This is why I have no problem at all with alleged "man hating". Misogyny harms all women. Women hating men does no harm whatsoever except to male egos

*dox them not did them

**’I only have an issue with behaviour. But I've said that several times Lola’

‘You do realise that you weren't even replying to me here. grin’*

Yes, I’ve noticed that Rooty has a beef with you, why I don’t know as you haven’t been guilty of bullying, only of disagreeing with her. As do a lot of us in fact.

Yes, I’ve noticed that Rooty has a beef with you, why I don’t know as you haven’t been guilty of bullying, only of disagreeing with her. As do a lot of us in fact
Their beef with me is because yesterday I noticed there was a trend to their posts across several threads. When I summarised them, they got annoyed at me for apparently taking things out of context in order to create a pile on.

They correctly pointed out that people can read the threads to see their views.

I don't think they appreciate that the reason lots of people were objecting across several threads was precisely because they had read the thread.

We've obviously had several claims of nasty/mean/toxic/abusive feminists.

Now today the beef is apparently only with behaviour, but then today's beef with me and others is that we are man hating.

@LolaSmiles

Yes, I’ve noticed that Rooty has a beef with you, why I don’t know as you haven’t been guilty of bullying, only of disagreeing with her. As do a lot of us in fact Their beef with me is because yesterday I noticed there was a trend to their posts across several threads. When I summarised them, they got annoyed at me for apparently taking things out of context in order to create a pile on.

They correctly pointed out that people can read the threads to see their views.

I don't think they appreciate that the reason lots of people were objecting across several threads was precisely because they had read the thread.

We've obviously had several claims of nasty/mean/toxic/abusive feminists.

Now today the beef is apparently only with behaviour, but then today's beef with me and others is that we are man hating.

Totally disingenous.

There was not LOTS of posters.

What you did was take a sentence out of context and post it no fewer than four times across three threads at intervals. I'm not sure what I can assume from that other than you attempting to stir it up. This was around the time another user was bullied off the thread and people were gloating.

Now who's playing the victim?

It is the behaviour. I don't think I've ever accused you of being man hating but you with perfect recall of my posts will be able to tell me.

@enigma16

RootyT00t

Sorry but I am really beginning to lose patience with you. Please don't derail these important conversations by taking over every thread with you petty bickering. We get your point. Now can you go make yourself a cup of coffee or something?

I said about 15 posts ago the issue had been discussed and I'd like to move on. Lola and others continued it. I haven't been speaking to myself.

@LastRoloIsMine

As I've said many times, the way they express those views, the language they used, the way they treat other people.

So unless women talk in a way you approve of you deem them bullies and man hating?

So women must have their language controlled?
They cannot express anger or disgust or passion?
They must speak kindly at all times?

Did I say any of those things?

@LolaSmiles

You are very vocal with your views Rooty as is your right. You do not hide the fact that you are a huge supporter of males and you think women who discuss feminisim and the issues females face are nasty men hating bullies.

You see some posters as spiteful I see them simply disagreeing with you

I agree.

For what it's worth many of us so called man hating toxic feminists have repeatedly said (across several threads) that we think toxic masculinity is bad for men and feeds into issues of men's mental health and men's suicide rates. Many posters have also said they would support campaigns to raise the profile of men's suicide and other related issues.
Posters have just objected to discussions of women's struggles being taken over by 'what about men'. Hardly man hating.

I only have an issue with behaviour. But I've said that several times Lola
You do realise that you weren't even replying to me here.

I have never accused you of man hating.

Apologies on misquoting you and @LastRoloIsMine. It all starts to look the same after a while.

'It all starts to look the same after a while.'

Sums up the majority of your posts.

What you did was take a sentence out of context and post it no fewer than four times across three threads at intervals. I'm not sure what I can assume from that other than you attempting to stir it up. This was around the time another user was bullied off the thread and people were gloating.
Out of interest, what is the right context for someone saying that they don't think misogyny is as bad as some women make out?

You seem really annoyed that I've said this, but you said it and your posts in the last day all demonstrate this view.

Combined with you talking a lot about defending men, I think this view is extremely relevant when you seem to be centring men as women are discussing sex based oppression.

@LolaSmiles

What you did was take a sentence out of context and post it no fewer than four times across three threads at intervals. I'm not sure what I can assume from that other than you attempting to stir it up. This was around the time another user was bullied off the thread and people were gloating. Out of interest, what is the right context for someone saying that they don't think misogyny is as bad as some women make out?

You seem really annoyed that I've said this, but you said it and your posts in the last day all demonstrate this view.

Combined with you talking a lot about defending men, I think this view is extremely relevant when you seem to be centring men as women are discussing sex based oppression.

Because you didn't give the context of the post I was responding to, as I've explained five times now.

It was in direct response to a post saying misandry' doesn't exist. My flippancy was well OK I don't think misogny is as bad as you say, now where are we? What have we achieved? Where does this get us, when we continue like this?

@supercee

'It all starts to look the same after a while.'

Sums up the majority of your posts.

Funny that, being consistent with my opinions. Imagine.

Jumping on every post with tit for tat comments designed to antagonise and not add anything useful is giving your 'opinions' is it. Yawn.

It was in direct response to a post saying misandry' doesn't exist. My flippancy was well OK I don't think misogny is as bad as you say, now where are we? What have we achieved? Where does this get us, when we continue like this?

You don't think misogyny is as bad as people say. You might have been flippant in your response, but that is your view and your extensive posts demonstrate that's your view.

Why is it so wrong to point out that someone who has repeatedly minimised sexism, said women don't need to centre women's oppression, and that misogyny isn't as bad as people say has said those things?

#Notallpeople are burglars or thieves, we still encourage everybody to lock up their stuff and secure their property even though we shouldn't have to. The overwhelming majority of people will have things stolen during their lifetime.

Encouraging people to take precautions against things that shouldn't happen to them is not victim blaming, it's just basic common sense for the world we live in. People have stolen and raped for as long as there have been people, it will never go away. The best ways to minimise it are education and a functioning police and justice system.

Did I say any of those things?

Rooty I am sure you know that my use of ? means I was asking you a question not accusing you of saying those things.

@RootyT00t

Okay, I should have said ‘several’ not ‘lots of’ posters. But judging by the number of women who went to the vigil, there are a lot of women who are angry. Not at men for being men. I’ve said numerous times that I’m married to a man who isn’t at all like that. He’s as angry as anyone about violence against women, because of what my siblings and I went through as children and as a father of DDs. And obviously my DH isn’t a one off, there will be a lot of decent men who are equally angry.

It clearly isn’t just about Sarah, and FWIW, I think we should back off now to give her family a chance to grieve and to allow the police to investigate.

But there have been far too many rapes and sexual assaults that haven’t led to convictions. It’s no wonder that women are angry. I’ve been there, none of my abusers were.convicted though admittedly this is mainly because my F is dead.

This is a tipping point. Women have finally had enough of male violence and want there to be genuine change.