The problem with "#NotAllMen"

[TheABC]

I read this on the BBC and it beautifully sums up the doublethink problem women face in society.

*"...some people are keen to point out that it's a tiny minority of men who are attackers - using the hashtag #NotAllMen.

"The issue with the argument is that women can't win," says Daisy.

"They want women to not treat all men as potential attackers, but then we also are asked to keep ourselves safe.

"Keeping ourselves safe means that we have to see everyone as potential attackers because if we were to say, 'OK, not all men, we will treat everyone as innocent until proven guilty", that's when these things happen.

"And that's when people say, she should have been more careful.

"So it's really tough, because I think it's an attitude that's really built into society."*

Is she (and I) being unreasonable?

But I also am not in support of women's rights being thrown out 😂 that would be a bit ridiculous given that I am one.

You’d think so, wouldn’t you? And yet here we are.

You seem to still believe in fairy tales, in gallant knights and the odd few monsters lurking in the shadows. I struggle to believe that my experience - of seemingly decent men repeatedly revealing themselves to be misogynists at best - is all that unusual.

If you do not understand how male socialisation, male behaviour in general feeds into this issue then you’re not thinking very hard about it.

If my DH can understand it, having never experienced it, I’m pretty sure you can. And yet you’re not interested in trying, I have to wonder why that is. Why is it that some men want to understand and listen, and some women just want to shout women down? If indeed you are a woman, I have no way of knowing.

@Deathgrip

But I also am not in support of women's rights being thrown out 😂 that would be a bit ridiculous given that I am one.

You’d think so, wouldn’t you? And yet here we are.

You seem to still believe in fairy tales, in gallant knights and the odd few monsters lurking in the shadows. I struggle to believe that my experience - of seemingly decent men repeatedly revealing themselves to be misogynists at best - is all that unusual.

If you do not understand how male socialisation, male behaviour in general feeds into this issue then you’re not thinking very hard about it.

If my DH can understand it, having never experienced it, I’m pretty sure you can. And yet you’re not interested in trying, I have to wonder why that is. Why is it that some men want to understand and listen, and some women just want to shout women down? If indeed you are a woman, I have no way of knowing.

Course I am.

I do want to understand and listen, and understand and listen I do, but not when it's done aggressively. I think most people are like that.

How does one differentiate between aggression and passion? Tone? Words used? Statements you personally feel unpalatable? Or is this a "be nice" thing?

@MistressoftheDarkSide

How does one differentiate between aggression and passion? Tone? Words used? Statements you personally feel unpalatable? Or is this a "be nice" thing?

Treatment of other people.

It almost certainly includes using exclamation marks! ‽

How does one differentiate between aggression and passion? Tone? Words used? Statements you personally feel unpalatable? Or is this a "be nice" thing?
When it comes to feminism it seems women being passionate is problematic.

See also:
A woman in the workplace who doesn't take any shit and has boundaries is a bitch or aggressive, but a man doing the same is assertive.
A girl leading a game in the playground or taking a lead in group work is bossy, but a boy doing the same would get a gold star for leadership.

It's an attitude that is developed over several years.

Right, so you come into a thread where women are talking about the harm done to them by men, derail it by saying how unfair this is to men, and then act surprised that this pisses people off and say that their tone is unreasonable?

Honestly I’m tired of worrying about men’s feelings. I’ve been brought up to be polite, consider the feelings of others, be empathetic, think before I act, put myself in the shoes of others, to be quiet and not centre myself. If only men were socialised in the same way, maybe we would have a society where women are not treated so badly by men so often.

When discussing this with DH in the last few days he’s talked about how easy it is for men to slip into these patterns - where you see yourself as “one of the good ones”, and that this should earn you some kind of praise or reward, and then get shitty because you don’t. He pointed out that not being a misogynist and not harassing women shouldn’t make you a good man, it’s the bare fucking minimum. It should be neutral, it should take more than that. Have a look at some message boards mostly populated by men posting on things like “the friend zone” - endless streams of “nice guys” who think that sex should be their reward for “being nice” and getting angry at the sluts who pay them no attention. Look at incels. Look at Elliot Rogers, Roosh V, MGTOW. The hardened ones, the openly violent ones may be few but the number of men who share the basics of these viewpoints is really fucking scary.

Have you honestly never had a male friend you trusted who waited until you were vulnerable / drunk to try it on? Never had a male friend who lost his shit when he realised you weren’t going to sleep with him? I can’t even count how many times I’ve had this happen and I’m by no means any man’s idea of a perfect woman. It was so intensely disappointing as a young woman to have my growing distrust of men reinforced over and over again.

I think that the whole “Not All Men” hashtag and crew are just fundamentally missing the point.

All of their arguments are based on misunderstanding (wilful or otherwise) and false equivalencies.

For example:
Women say “we need all men to help us with this problem”
The NotAllMen crew hear “ all men are commuting these acts”

Women say “it wasn’t her fault, s he did all the right things it shouldn’t be down to women to ensure that people don’t attack them”
The NotAllMen crew hear “it’s not her fault therefore it is YOUR fault”

Research says that 97% of young women have been assaulted, harassed or attacked.
#NotAllMen hear “97% of men attack women”

It’s all just stupid.

Not sure if it’s already been referenced here. But Daniel Sloss’s response in his tour last year following the whole case involving his former friend James Veitch is an excellent place to ask these people to start.

Alternatively this shark analogy is excellent.

@Deathgrip High five, and @LolaSmiles

Also, I have always adores Davina McCall but her recent statement basically saying that this was all over the top and women should pipe down because male mental health and suicide is already a bad enough problem made me FURIOUS.

A) the fact that one problem is not the only problem in the world does not mean it is an invalid concern or not worth fixing. That is just moronic logic

B) it completely ignores all the physical and mental harm inflicted on women from the continual and non stop mental and emotional burden of this.

C) i am heavily involved in working on the issues of male suicide and mental health and the single biggest cause of this is actually THE SAME GOD DAMN TOXIC MASCULINITY as fosters/encourages/excuses unacceptable behaviour and treatment towards women.

Why do men who aren't responsible for assaulting and attacking us have to take responsibility, then

Just to expand on why men who assault and attack women are not the only problem but a part of a spectrum of abuse towards women, and why 'nice guys' also have to take responsibility by examining their behaviour and attitudes.

I work with 'one of the good ones', a 'nice guy' by many accounts, someone who promotes women in a male-dominated field and is inclusive of women and listens to them and their opinions. He has also:

Likened me to a musty old carpet in a meeting in front of several colleagues.
Asked a colleague who arrived to work with me if he had picked up an antique on his way in.
Asked if he should 'do' me.
At the end of an event publicly thanked a male colleague for his input but failed to thank his women colleagues for theirs.

Just a couple of examples.

we are now claiming all men to be rapist and murderers

No one has ever said that ALL MEN are violent towards women. It’s been pointed out that it can’t be only a small minority of men, if 97% of 18-30 year old women have faced sexual harassment from men. It must be more common than a lot of people want to believe.

I’m certainly not anti-men. I have a lovely DH and my BILs and friends’ DHs seem lovely too. But I was sexually abused by men as a child, including my F, who appeared to be a thoroughly decent man to those who knew him. (My DM had no idea either.)

It’s uncomfortable to think that there’s a large number of men who have been guilty of violence towards women. But it is a fact. Stating this fact doesn’t mean I hate all men.

Why should a man be made to feel uncomfortable for walking down the street at night? I'm sorry, but this doesn't sit easy with me. Maybe us women need to change our attitudes too, and stop tarring all men with the same brush. I'm guilty of feeling uncomfortable when walking alone, but this says more about me and the social constructs I've been brought up with than it does about any men I might pass on my journey.

From a young age, we're taught that we "need to be careful of strange men".. don't take any sweeties or get into any cars; be back before it gets dark or you'll get kidnapped.. be careful of that man who lives on his own, he must be a paedophile.

We're taught to live in fear from the moment we step out of the door.

This campaign will change nothing. It will just make innocent men feel targeted, and with good reason.

What needs to change is out policing system. We're far too lenient on criminals. Guilty men are let out early on good behaviour. Pedophiles are let back out into society without adequate surveillance. Rape victims are afraid to speak out as our legal system is so flawed.

Women will continue to live in fear until THIS changes. Unfortunately, the virtue-signalling campaign will undoubtedly continue, and it will cut deep for the innocent men who deserve none of this judgement.

Naming men as responsible fro almost all violent crime, is just reality.

I hear America can be pretty harsh on crime. But their rates are higher than ours. Punishment doesn't seem to work. It needs to start with parents and be backed up by society. None of this 'boys will be boys' bollocks or acceptance of 'banter '. No gendered insults. More awareness of the language we use.

I'm guilty of feeling uncomfortable when walking alone, but this says more about me and the social constructs I've been brought up with than it does about any men I might pass on my journey.

Another woman is murdered, walking alone, and you say this.

OK. I'll repeat myself.

I walked home with a male friend. He offered, he was worried about my safety, we were sober but it was winter, it was dark. I didn't fear him. He was a friend of quite a few years.

He raped me. Dragged me into an alleyway, beat my head against the wall and raped me.

Now... what did I do wrong?

Let me repeat myself again I didn't fear him!

"I am sorry" just doesn't fucking cut it.

There is no way to know which man is violent. No sign, no magical potion. All I know is that had he been female I could have fought back more effectively, would not have been raped, humiliated, been called a liar, home wrecker, dragged through a court, reported in local newspaper, labelled a whore and prostitute - I worked behind a bar!

I was 19 years old. I am now 55. He taught me how to fear men. All men, strangers and friends alike.

So please, don't be sorry. Don't dismiss the experiences if women like myself in some desperate attempt to prove that all men are not like that!

Logically I know NAMALT. But my experience tells me I can't tell the always harmless ones from the occasionally dangerous ones.

Don't dismiss that, belittle my experience. It demeans us both!

CuriousaboutSamphire I mean this most sincerely, I am so sorry.

I am sorry for all that happened to you. And so sorry that despite real experiences like this people still want to air on the side of being generous to men and assuming then are not at all dangerous, just because some of them are not.

Our society needs a total overhaul. I have heard recently in the media, it's been like this for decades, it's been like this for centuries. But we know it has been like this for millennium.

I wonder how many women married simply for protection. How many have pretended to have a boyfriend to keep other men away.

This debate is needed for all of us.

Thank you.

I probably should add that I was one of the few. I identified him to police immediately and actually got him into court.

My now DH and many of the pub regulars wanted to give evidence for my good character, they were very supportive. But I had to stop working there. I couldn't walk home alone and couldn't trust any of them.

My rapist was convicted, probably only because if the head injury I sustained, that's how the judge seemed to explain it to the jury. He got 5 years, out in 2.

He is now a happily married man. Married his school sweetheart, the same woman he left at her flat to walk me home that night.

Luckily they moved away!

@EBearhug

How is it that they are taught that it's OK? Who teaches it?

All the men who witness them behaving that way and don't step in to say, "you're out of order - saying/doing things like that isn't acceptable." All the men who think it's not their job, who feel they can choose not to be part of society if it might make them feel a bit uncomfortable.

Ignoring all the merailing and such, and going back to a comment on page 6...

We all know one of the boring male type who makes the faux-jokes with women as their target. (Mother-in-laws jokes and Essex Girl and equivalents.)

Men all know at least one of him too.

If a woman asks him to shut up, he has won and can gloatingly accuse her of having no sense of humour.

If a man tiredly says wtte "Oh, give it a rest, Barry; it's not funny" there is a strong chance that he will shut up, at least on that occasion. If enough men say it, he may start to wonder just how funny it actually is. Given time, Barry may even say "Give it a rest, it's not funny" when Gary starts telling the unfunny sexist unjokes.

And fewer other men will think that denigrating women ho-ho-ho is behaviour approved by their peers and their mates. Fewer young men will hear their older colleagues or relations making it clear that women are in some way undeserving of respect -- or half-way decent treatment. Fewer young men will think that it's acceptable to verbally assault random women.

It's got to be worth trying; and every man who says "being told about male violence offends me" or "it's not my problem" is a lesser man and a lesser person for his decision not to do anything to improve matters.

@DrSbaitso

I'm guilty of feeling uncomfortable when walking alone, but this says more about me and the social constructs I've been brought up with than it does about any men I might pass on my journey.

Another woman is murdered, walking alone, and you say this.

What happened is tragic, of course I'm not denying this. But women walk alone every minute of every day, and 99.9% of the time we do so safely. If we lived by this logic we'd never leave this house. This poor woman was killed by a murderer, by someone who was most likely mentally unstable. To make assumptions on what is essentially 50% of the UK population based solely on their sex is irrational and discriminatory.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

Thank you.

I probably should add that I was one of the few. I identified him to police immediately and actually got him into court.

My now DH and many of the pub regulars wanted to give evidence for my good character, they were very supportive. But I had to stop working there. I couldn't walk home alone and couldn't trust any of them.

My rapist was convicted, probably only because if the head injury I sustained, that's how the judge seemed to explain it to the jury. He got 5 years, out in 2.

He is now a happily married man. Married his school sweetheart, the same woman he left at her flat to walk me home that night.

Luckily they moved away!

I was not suggesting in any way that you were merailing, and I am incredibly sorry that this happened to you. I just missed several posts while I was hunting back through the thread to find the post I wanted to answer.

So what? Women are not allowed to do a sensible risk assessment because it will somehow be conveyed to every man she passes/avoids that she has condemned him as a possible source if violence?

How many women are you willing to endanger to make those unknowing men feel better?

Asking my last response was to the other poster, not you. I didn't think you meant me with that comment.

enigma16

The men who commit crimes against women are not doing so in a vacuum - they are products of a sexist and misogynist culture. They need educating and the culture needs to change, which is what we are trying to do here by talking about it.

Well said. It is exactly this.

And women who support this toxic, sexist behaviour; you do know that you are throwing yourself under the bus too? You’re not gaining any real respect from men by supporting male privilege or misogyny. Men who are sexist and have contempt for women are just going to justify their contempt by saying ‘there’s another woman throwing women under the bus.’ And it fuels their contempt for you and every other woman. Not that they are justified in their contempt for women, nor are women to blame.

Just keep in mind that throwing women under the bus does not earn you respect from men. They’ll kick you under the bus along with us.