The problem with "#NotAllMen"

[TheABC]

I read this on the BBC and it beautifully sums up the doublethink problem women face in society.

*"...some people are keen to point out that it's a tiny minority of men who are attackers - using the hashtag #NotAllMen.

"The issue with the argument is that women can't win," says Daisy.

"They want women to not treat all men as potential attackers, but then we also are asked to keep ourselves safe.

"Keeping ourselves safe means that we have to see everyone as potential attackers because if we were to say, 'OK, not all men, we will treat everyone as innocent until proven guilty", that's when these things happen.

"And that's when people say, she should have been more careful.

"So it's really tough, because I think it's an attitude that's really built into society."*

Is she (and I) being unreasonable?

And I feel I must again express my apologies. I had no idea when I signposted Rooty from another AIBU to the FWR threads that she would be quite so TWAW and NAMALT.

I imagined, at the time, that she was, like so many of us, looking for proper data on what is happening in many organisations, the effects of so much of the TRA behind the scenes behaviours.

But no! And for that I bear a scintilla of blame. A waffer thin mint of a scintilla

@enigma16

RootyT00t

I can't be arsed to read through the whole thread so why don't you explain what your views are and if OK, I'd be happy to try to respond constructively.

Thanks!

Il assume this is in good faith.

I'm sure my regular harassers will be along to correct me , but these are my views.

I am a woman. I think male on female violence is appealing, scary and worrying. I think lads culture can be horrendous. I've met lots of arseholes in my time who treat and view women badly.

However, it irks me that here on MN we can be absolutely stereotypical, make wide assumptions, and be flippant about males. Their problems are their own, we don't care about their mental health, boo boo menz etc, but when it's an issue like women's safety we put it on men to help us. I don't like the attacking of women who try to present thecother side, or the gang handed approach to anyone who has a different opinion.

Oh and I also don't like how women demand echo chambers on threads where they can say as they like about men and nobody can say otherwise.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

And I feel I must again express my apologies. I had no idea when I signposted Rooty from another AIBU to the FWR threads that she would be quite so TWAW and NAMALT.

I imagined, at the time, that she was, like so many of us, looking for proper data on what is happening in many organisations, the effects of so much of the TRA behind the scenes behaviours.

But no! And for that I bear a scintilla of blame. A waffer thin mint of a scintilla

Curioua, that is embarrassing. You remind me of the girl in the middle of the class trying to get in with the cool kids. If you want to be seen as one of the bullies, you crack on.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

And I feel I must again express my apologies. I had no idea when I signposted Rooty from another AIBU to the FWR threads that she would be quite so TWAW and NAMALT.

I imagined, at the time, that she was, like so many of us, looking for proper data on what is happening in many organisations, the effects of so much of the TRA behind the scenes behaviours.

But no! And for that I bear a scintilla of blame. A waffer thin mint of a scintilla

Btw, you didn't bring me over.

As much as youd like to, you and your little toxic gang do not police MN.

Solipsism is alive and well, it seems!

@CuriousaboutSamphire

Solipsism is alive and well, it seems!

Even you can't be dim enough to accuse a poster who is being battered for seeing views other than their own sex of that, Curious.

Well getting sic and tired of being told what to do , where to go how to ‘protect myself’, then in the same breath being told ‘ooooh men are more at risk than women.’ Well tell men to stay the fuck indoors then. Tell men not to be alone. Tell men never, ever to be out after dark. Tell men to be careful and have their wits about them at all times.
Oh but that would be ridiculous wouldn’t it.

#WLM

As much as youd like to, you and your little toxic gang do not police MN In all seriousnes Rooty joking aside, no insults intended or in error.

You are fully aware how at odds with MN you are. With FWR in particular. You have your own agenda. Your own way of expressing yourself. Your own morals and standpoint.

But you know that your perspective is closely akin to the Sub Reddits, 4Chan, Twitter bollocks that MN has to suffer. I mean the organisation rather than the individuals who post here.

You are combative. Fine. But you do tend to over egg it and then get all coy when called out for your own. Again, fine, but tiresome.

You'd get a far better experience here if you stopped to listen, to digest what is being said. You don't have to change your mind, your perspective is yours. But the persistent snipiness, name calling and 'woe is me' is tiresome to read, must feel that way too. And it is really fucking annoying that so many spend so much time trying to be polite, complete and informative when all you seem to want to do is derail, reduce and generally fuck up the flow of threads.

You may not know it, or giove it any credence whatsoever, but many of us take time to reply to posts such as yours because it helps others, often people who read but don't post, see how much women's voices are challenged for no reason other than NAMALT or TWAW.

TLDR? It isn't you we are talking to!

but when it's an issue like women's safety we put it on men to help us

I cannot even...

I have no idea how you function in the real world with such levels of cognitive dissonance.

We don’t want men to “help us”. We want them to stop harassing and abusing and assaulting us, and to direct any anger about this where it’s due rather than at us.

Why am I not at all surprised that you’re also in support of women’s rights because thrown out to benefit men, while also disagreeing with BLM. Of course you are.

@online it's not that its ridiculous, its that it wont change anything because good men will not attack and bad men will. So as a women, you just gave to take precautions as sadly no one can stop bad people doing things. I'm a woman and I accept that it's just part of life, like looking both ways when crossing a road!

@CuriousaboutSamphire

As much as youd like to, you and your little toxic gang do not police MN In all seriousnes Rooty joking aside, no insults intended or in error.

You are fully aware how at odds with MN you are. With FWR in particular. You have your own agenda. Your own way of expressing yourself. Your own morals and standpoint.

But you know that your perspective is closely akin to the Sub Reddits, 4Chan, Twitter bollocks that MN has to suffer. I mean the organisation rather than the individuals who post here.

You are combative. Fine. But you do tend to over egg it and then get all coy when called out for your own. Again, fine, but tiresome.

You'd get a far better experience here if you stopped to listen, to digest what is being said. You don't have to change your mind, your perspective is yours. But the persistent snipiness, name calling and 'woe is me' is tiresome to read, must feel that way too. And it is really fucking annoying that so many spend so much time trying to be polite, complete and informative when all you seem to want to do is derail, reduce and generally fuck up the flow of threads.

You may not know it, or giove it any credence whatsoever, but many of us take time to reply to posts such as yours because it helps others, often people who read but don't post, see how much women's voices are challenged for no reason other than NAMALT or TWAW.

TLDR? It isn't you we are talking to!

I've never been coy in my life.

'generallu fuck up the flow of threads'

Yes, us terrible posters who come on and don't allow 39 pages of slagging off men.

How dreadful of me.

I am actually not combative.

I used to get genuinely upset and not engage in threads.

Now, I will not be bullied off by the toxic posters. And they don't like it. Tough.

@Deathgrip

but when it's an issue like women's safety we put it on men to help us

I cannot even...

I have no idea how you function in the real world with such levels of cognitive dissonance.

We don’t want men to “help us”. We want them to stop harassing and abusing and assaulting us, and to direct any anger about this where it’s due rather than at us.

Why am I not at all surprised that you’re also in support of women’s rights because thrown out to benefit men, while also disagreeing with BLM. Of course you are.

I just walk into walls all day.

Thank god for MN.

No, you don't.

There are men who don't abuse and assault you. But the general vibe is that they should stand up for you anyway. That's helping is it not?

BLM has no relevance here. But I also am not in support of women's rights being thrown out 😂 that would be a bit ridiculous given that I am one.

CuriousaboutSamphire
Very well put.

It's not that surprising that most women, on a predominantly female forum will have quite strong views about shit women experience at the hands of men and the patriarchy.

There's lots of different views on here, but regardless of people's views on specific issues most women will be able to identify moments they have been shafted, assaulted, harassed, attacked, just for being a woman. These incidents will range from the small scale incidents, through systemic attitudes to women (men not being able to see mess so women have to manage all the domestic work and mental load), through to sexual expectations of women (how many women have agreed to sex out of obligation or because their partner has been moody and it will shut them up. Then there's unwanted attention, unwanted touch, being expected to suck up 'banter'. Then there's the issues surrounding maternity discrimination and maternal health too.Then there's domestic violence, coercive control and violent attacks on women.

When women are discussing these issues it's unsurprising if many women take an issue with anyone trying to man-rail the topic back to why women are mean/NAMALT/but whatabout men.

@LolaSmiles

CuriousaboutSamphire Very well put.

It's not that surprising that most women, on a predominantly female forum will have quite strong views about shit women experience at the hands of men and the patriarchy.

There's lots of different views on here, but regardless of people's views on specific issues most women will be able to identify moments they have been shafted, assaulted, harassed, attacked, just for being a woman. These incidents will range from the small scale incidents, through systemic attitudes to women (men not being able to see mess so women have to manage all the domestic work and mental load), through to sexual expectations of women (how many women have agreed to sex out of obligation or because their partner has been moody and it will shut them up. Then there's unwanted attention, unwanted touch, being expected to suck up 'banter'. Then there's the issues surrounding maternity discrimination and maternal health too.Then there's domestic violence, coercive control and violent attacks on women.

When women are discussing these issues it's unsurprising if many women take an issue with anyone trying to man-rail the topic back to why women are mean/NAMALT/but whatabout men.

All fine points Lola, but pretty ridiculous of you to assume that I have not been victim of any of those things.

However, it irks me that here on MN we can be absolutely stereotypical, make wide assumptions, and be flippant about males. Their problems are their own, we don't care about their mental health, boo boo menz etc, but when it's an issue like women's safety we put it on men to help us. I don't like the attacking of women who try to present thecother side, or the gang handed approach to anyone who has a different opinion.

I'm really trying to respond to this respectfully but I can't really get the sense of what you are saying.

How are women being flippant about males by demanding that all forms of sexism, harassment, abuse and violence, and any excuses for them stop? That is certainly what I am doing here.

Their problems are their own, we don't care about their mental health, boo boo menz etc,

Why do women have to take responsibility for men's problems or mental health? What about the immense toll on women's mental health by the misogyny we experience? And turning the focus on men and their problems when we are trying to talk about how to help women who suffer at the hands of men is not particularly helpful.

I don't like the attacking of women who try to present thecother side, or the gang handed approach to anyone who has a different opinion

I still don't see what 'other side' or 'different opinion' there can possibly be to highlighting and trying to tackle misogyny and male violence?

@enigma16

However, it irks me that here on MN we can be absolutely stereotypical, make wide assumptions, and be flippant about males. Their problems are their own, we don't care about their mental health, boo boo menz etc, but when it's an issue like women's safety we put it on men to help us. I don't like the attacking of women who try to present thecother side, or the gang handed approach to anyone who has a different opinion.

I'm really trying to respond to this respectfully but I can't really get the sense of what you are saying.

How are women being flippant about males by demanding that all forms of sexism, harassment, abuse and violence, and any excuses for them stop? That is certainly what I am doing here.

Their problems are their own, we don't care about their mental health, boo boo menz etc,

Why do women have to take responsibility for men's problems or mental health? What about the immense toll on women's mental health by the misogyny we experience? And turning the focus on men and their problems when we are trying to talk about how to help women who suffer at the hands of men is not particularly helpful.

I don't like the attacking of women who try to present thecother side, or the gang handed approach to anyone who has a different opinion

I still don't see what 'other side' or 'different opinion' there can possibly be to highlighting and trying to tackle misogyny and male violence?

Why do men who arent responsible for assaulting and attacking us have to take responsibility, then?

but when it's an issue like women's safety we put it on men to help us

I missed this one. Surely if you reflect just a little bit you must see how wrong your thinking is here? It's hard to know how even to begin to respond to this. Your thinking is completely skewed on this, sorry if that sounds rude, but it is.

Women's safety is compromised my male behaviour so the onus is obviously with men to change!

Why do men who arent responsible for assaulting and attacking us have to take responsibility, then?

Men are responsible for creating, peerpetuating and not challenging a sexist culture from which they benefit. Including making and not challenging sexist jokes and banter, 'not seeing' or challenging abuse, discrimination or assault, for not challenging male privilege, for consuming porn that demeans women and normalises violence against women. All men are responsible for creating (or not) a culture in women feel safe and valued.

@enigma16

but when it's an issue like women's safety we put it on men to help us

I missed this one. Surely if you reflect just a little bit you must see how wrong your thinking is here? It's hard to know how even to begin to respond to this. Your thinking is completely skewed on this, sorry if that sounds rude, but it is.

Women's safety is compromised my male behaviour so the onus is obviously with men to change!

Not rude at all.

No, it's up to society to change.

Or the men responsible.

Not just every man in history because he has a penis and so do the murderers.

@enigma16

Why do men who arent responsible for assaulting and attacking us have to take responsibility, then?

Men are responsible for creating, peerpetuating and not challenging a sexist culture from which they benefit. Including making and not challenging sexist jokes and banter, 'not seeing' or challenging abuse, discrimination or assault, for not challenging male privilege, for consuming porn that demeans women and normalises violence against women. All men are responsible for creating (or not) a culture in women feel safe and valued.

Right

But in turn, instead of being arseholes about men on these forums shouldn't we do the same?

The men who commit crimes against women are not doing so in a vacuum - they are products of a sexist and misogynist culture. They need educating and the culture needs to change, which is what we are trying to do here by talking about it.

The men who commit crimes against women are not doing so in a vacuum - they are products of a sexist and misogynist culture. They need educating and the culture needs to change, which is what we are trying to do here by talking about it.
Exactly this.

It's also true for women who perpetuate sexist and misogynistic culture (eg. Talking about girls with leadership skills as being bossy/ telling boys to toughen up/ dismissing violence between boys or boys targeting girls as 'boys will be boys' / minimising systemic issues that oppress women by saying 'yeah but some women are mean to other women's/trying to turn discussions about women's sex based oppression into a 'whataboutmen' discussion/ blaming women for not fixing men's problems/ holding women responsible for male behaviour). They are also products of a system that is sexist.

By centering some of the issues and exploring the problems we can make progress. Men and women have a duty to challenge inequality and sexism if we are going to have a more equal society, and they need to start by calling out their peers when they see sexism instead of getting annoyed when women talk about male pattern violence and systems that oppress women.