The problem with "#NotAllMen"

[TheABC]

I read this on the BBC and it beautifully sums up the doublethink problem women face in society.

*"...some people are keen to point out that it's a tiny minority of men who are attackers - using the hashtag #NotAllMen.

"The issue with the argument is that women can't win," says Daisy.

"They want women to not treat all men as potential attackers, but then we also are asked to keep ourselves safe.

"Keeping ourselves safe means that we have to see everyone as potential attackers because if we were to say, 'OK, not all men, we will treat everyone as innocent until proven guilty", that's when these things happen.

"And that's when people say, she should have been more careful.

"So it's really tough, because I think it's an attitude that's really built into society."*

Is she (and I) being unreasonable?

@LolaSmiles

I am not saying anything in relation to a murdered woman, it's a wider debate. I wouldn't be as crass to use her death in that way The only people I see 'using'her death are those on this thread and others who seem to be saying that this discussion shouldn't take place because it's using someone's death, that people shouldn't joke about the awful advice telling women to stay in to avoid being murdered because now is the wrong time to mock at misogynistic guidance (don't forget that it was apparently very very mean to say men should stay in on curfew because poor men might get sad by that joke, but same people weren't up in arms at women being told it's their job to avoid murderers).

It does seem like there's a lot of shutting down here:
Whatabout the men
NAMALT
You all hate men
Don't talk about the issues of male violence to women after a murder because that's 'using' someone's death

It's so transparent.

That's not shutting down. It's presenting a different view point. It's allowed.

Christ. I wasn’t even responding to you. I didn’t say you were a man. I said there are men on this thread who’ve popped up to do exactly as I’ve described because they dislike women not being polite, not prioritising the feelings of men, because they are not used to it.

To those saying they should be able to come onto a predominately womens board to discuss their views, can you not see how wrong it is to say ALL MEN? Or why that might not spark fury?

Shall we now not care about the feelings of ALL muslims in case they are terrorists?

Shall we now not care about ALL black youths feelings incase they are carrying knives and are part of gang violence?

Shall we now not care about ALL police feeling incase they are corrupt and potential sex offenders?

Such hypocrites!!!

@Deathgrip

Christ. I wasn’t even responding to you. I didn’t say you were a man. I said there are men on this thread who’ve popped up to do exactly as I’ve described because they dislike women not being polite, not prioritising the feelings of men, because they are not used to it.

But that's just misandry'.

@Crystalclair

To those saying they should be able to come onto a predominately womens board to discuss their views, can you not see how wrong it is to say ALL MEN? Or why that might not spark fury?

Shall we now not care about the feelings of ALL muslims in case they are terrorists?

Shall we now not care about ALL black youths feelings incase they are carrying knives and are part of gang violence?

Shall we now not care about ALL police feeling incase they are corrupt and potential sex offenders?

Such hypocrites!!!

Quite.

This isn’t the first thread to have had men post on it to derail it or criticise women.

There was once (long time ago) a thread where a man was posting and claimed to be a woman initially then admitted further in that he was a man. From memory he was giving women a hard time.

Here is a list of some of the men’s forums on the internet. I googled and there were hundreds. I wondered how many had women posting on them to derail conversations, criticise and undermine men or sabotage their support networks. I only looked at a few and couldn’t find any that women had posted on or derailed or criticised etc.

Men’s forums
mensshed.org/theshedonline/forums/forum/general-chatter/
mysupportforums.org/men-focused-support/
fathersforum.com/
www.dadsonline.com.au/forums/
www.thedadsnet.com/the-dad-network-forum/
www.greatdad.com/forums
www.separateddads.co.uk/forum/index.php
www.fatherstobe.org/
mensgroup.com/mens-divorce-forum/
forum.mensdivorce.com/
www.gingerbread.org.uk/information/becoming-a-single-dad/
www.talkhealthpartnership.com/talkmenshealth/forums
rebuildingtheman.com/tag/mens-forum/

Why can’t us women have online support forums where we are free from being harassed by men. We aren’t busting in on your numerous support forums.

That's not shutting down. It's presenting a different view point. It's allowed.
It seems quite convenient you're on several threads at the moment, all about male violence to women, all arguing that it's poor men, and on one you're arguing that misogyny isn't that bad or particularly prevalent.

Don't forget that you're also accusing people discussing male violence to women of USING a woman's murder.

I'm not surprised though given you've also said you didn't agree with Black Lives Matter and think nobody needs to centre blatant oppression. There's a track record there of trying to argue against people challenging systemic discrimination and violence to specific groups.

@LolaSmiles

That's not shutting down. It's presenting a different view point. It's allowed. It seems quite convenient you're on several threads at the moment, all about male violence to women, all arguing that it's poor men, and on one you're arguing that misogyny isn't that bad or particularly prevalent.

Don't forget that you're also accusing people discussing male violence to women of USING a woman's murder.

I'm not surprised though given you've also said you didn't agree with Black Lives Matter and think nobody needs to centre blatant oppression. There's a track record there of trying to argue against people challenging systemic discrimination and violence to specific groups.

Yes, I'm well aware of what I've written.

If you're going to try and paint a picture to encourage a pile on, at least give context. My comment about misogny was a direct flippant response to someone denying misandry'.

Are you making a point or just parroting what I said?

If you're going to try and paint a picture to encourage a pile on, at least give context
I'm not encouraging a pile on.
If you get robustly challenged across several threads by lots of women who don't have much time for bullshit about how misogyny isn't really a problem, and that challenging male pattern violence is a bunch of nasty women who hate men then that comes down to your contributions across several threads on this topic.

As I said on the other thread:

1. You've said when women discuss male violence against women and misogyny, they're mean women who hate men
2. That when men challenge male violence against women and misogyny, they're virtue signalling
3. That discussing issues of male violence to woman after a brutal murder of a woman is apparently "using" someone's death

It almost comes across like you don't really like people discussing male pattern violence against women.

An example of a situation in which as a woman, I felt the need to do something to make myself feel safe.

Not long after a terrorist attack, I got on a carriage of a tube in London. There was a Muslim man with a rucksack. I instinctively jumped straight off and waited for the next train. But did so in a way that showed I got on the wrong train, so as not to make the man feel awkward.

I spent so much time feeling guilty as of course, the chances were that he was completely innocent. However, I made a decision that made me feel safe.

By the way, this has also happened when I boarded a carriage and there was a single man in there alone.

I accept as a women I have to make decisions to keep myself safe. I cannot make the presumably innocent Muslim man, or single guy in the carriage feel guilty, or wrong for being there!!

Bad people will do bad things no matter what revolution people are expecting here. Just like I cant hold them particular men responsible, I also cant hold all men responsible. I just make sensible decisions and accept that its necessary for us women to do. Whether we should or shouldn't have to is irrelevant.

Why should the two examples I used in my experience feel bad simply for being where they were, or being Muslim or a man!

@LolaSmiles

If you're going to try and paint a picture to encourage a pile on, at least give context I'm not encouraging a pile on. If you get robustly challenged across several threads by lots of women who don't have much time for bullshit about how misogyny isn't really a problem, and that challenging male pattern violence is a bunch of nasty women who hate men then that comes down to your contributions across several threads on this topic.

As I said on the other thread:

1. You've said when women discuss male violence against women and misogyny, they're mean women who hate men
2. That when men challenge male violence against women and misogyny, they're virtue signalling
3. That discussing issues of male violence to woman after a brutal murder of a woman is apparently "using" someone's death

It almost comes across like you don't really like people discussing male pattern violence against women.

No, it comes down to the same three women who have had an issue with me since our first interaction.

1. please quote me where I said they are mean women who hate men
2. That particular man wasn't really challenging anything, the man if he exists was making a vague statement. I could say that my grandad said that all women are excellent , doesn't make it right
3. also not what is said, and I wasn't the original posrt who said it.

It can come across how it likes. What I don't like is people dictating an echo chamber.

@ChangedName4TheSakeOfIt

"Not all men"

It's the "All lives matter" equivalent.

We KNOW it's not all men but it doesn't make one bit of difference to the actual issue.

Totally agree with this

@partyatthepalace

Not all Men is the same as All Lives Matter

I do hope that dors not mean #all women is not out the smash capitalism, defund the police and raise all children in a communist collective.

It isn't the equivalent, at all.

That particular man wasn't really challenging anything, the man if he exists was making a vague statement. I could say that my grandad said that all women are excellent , doesn't make it right
Oh good. Thank you for explaining to me that you know my husband better than I do.

Where would I be without having my husband's feminist beliefs dismissed by someone who thinks misogyny isn't as bad as women say it is.

@LolaSmiles

That particular man wasn't really challenging anything, the man if he exists was making a vague statement. I could say that my grandad said that all women are excellent , doesn't make it right Oh good. Thank you for explaining to me that you know my husband better than I do.

Where would I be without having my husband's feminist beliefs dismissed by someone who thinks misogyny isn't as bad as women say it is.

So in what way is he not a virtue signaller, Lola?

So in what way is he not a virtue signaller, Lola?

Because his actions match his words, and to be perfectly frank I've got zero inclination to get into defending my husband's commitment to equality to a random person on the internet who thinks misogyny isn't as bad as women say, and seems to spend most of their time arguing against women who challenge women's oppression.

You're spending a lot of mental energy objecting to men and women who are vocally in favour of women's safety and challenging misogyny.

@LolaSmiles

So in what way is he not a virtue signaller, Lola?

Because his actions match his words, and to be perfectly frank I've got zero inclination to get into defending my husband's commitment to equality to a random person on the internet who thinks misogyny isn't as bad as women say, and seems to spend most of their time arguing against women who challenge women's oppression.

You're spending a lot of mental energy objecting to men and women who are vocally in favour of women's safety and challenging misogyny.

No, I'm not.

I'm spending (not a lot of) mental energy calling out women who are bang out of order. I couldn't care less what they are in favour of.

who thinks misogyny isn't as bad as women say,

Lola, thats the fourth time you've written that on a thread with no context, and I've asked you twice politely to stop reporting my words without context with the intent of harassing or causing a pile on.

Please do that.

Can I ask this time? What pile on?

RootyT00t
As I've already said, discussing your views on threads is not harassment, nor is it creating a pile on.
As you've said, people can read the threads and can see your posts.

In light of that, maybe if many posters are robustly disagreeing with you across several threads, that is because your posts seem to show little regard for women discussing systemic oppression at the hands of men (as a class before you get all NAMALT on us again).

@LolaSmiles

RootyT00t As I've already said, discussing your views on threads is not harassment, nor is it creating a pile on. As you've said, people can read the threads and can see your posts.

In light of that, maybe if many posters are robustly disagreeing with you across several threads, that is because your posts seem to show little regard for women discussing systemic oppression at the hands of men (as a class before you get all NAMALT on us again).

No Lola , don't be sneaky.

I have a handful of the same posters disagreeing with me, which is fine and which is all well and good in a discussion forum, and I have no problem witb.

I do however have a problem with your behaviour. As you have said, people can see my posts, so you won't need to keep popping into several threads to repost things I've already said, will you?

RootyT00t

I can't be arsed to read through the whole thread so why don't you explain what your views are and if OK, I'd be happy to try to respond constructively.

Thanks!

Can I ask this time? What pile on?
I believe it refers to the angry/toxic/mean/nasty/(insert other word used to refer to women with strong opinions about women's oppression) feminists who have challenged their views across several threads today.

@Wilsonwilson

I dont know about anyone else but the "women do this too" "women are evil, look at this women who did this awful thing" makes me just feel uber anxious and awful in my gut. It makes me just give up even thinking about sharing my point of view.

Which I imagine is the point.

I feel same. Even my best friend shared this and I'm actually lost for words.