The problem with "#NotAllMen"

[TheABC]

I read this on the BBC and it beautifully sums up the doublethink problem women face in society.

*"...some people are keen to point out that it's a tiny minority of men who are attackers - using the hashtag #NotAllMen.

"The issue with the argument is that women can't win," says Daisy.

"They want women to not treat all men as potential attackers, but then we also are asked to keep ourselves safe.

"Keeping ourselves safe means that we have to see everyone as potential attackers because if we were to say, 'OK, not all men, we will treat everyone as innocent until proven guilty", that's when these things happen.

"And that's when people say, she should have been more careful.

"So it's really tough, because I think it's an attitude that's really built into society."*

Is she (and I) being unreasonable?

We are saying all men are, because when people say well actually no they aren't, there's a problem. No. That is whay you are insisting we are saying. Despite the very many women who have explained that is not what they are saying you return to this. Calling all the women who have posted liars!

I am more than happy to discuss violence against women. But only if women preface it with an acknowledgment that NAMALT! I just want to be able to discuss women's issues, on a board mostly used by women, without having to keep the same reserved, uber careful tongu in my head that I do in real life!

I've made several points in relation to that - namely that the majority of violence against women happens in the home by someone they know, so this focusing on males in the street and saying 'but I have a husband and sons so it's not misandry' is a bit...odd. Fuck all of that! Just stop! Misdirection, whataboutery, whatever you want to call it.

Male violence in all its guises is the issue.

I am more than happy to discuss violence against women. I've made several points in relation to that - namely that the majority of violence against women happens in the home by someone they know, so this focusing on males in the street and saying 'but I have a husband and sons so it's not misandry' is a bit...odd.

Stop with the whataboutery please.

Yes, male violence in the home and by men you know is a massive fucking problem.

Harassment by men in the street is part of the same problem.

Misogynistic jokes and banter are part of the same problem.

Male entitlement is part of the same problem.

Women being expected to endlessly modify their behaviour because their very presence is provocative is part of the same problem.

A culture which normalises this treatment of women is the problem, whichever symptom of that is being discussed.

@Silenceisgolden20 I’m sorry you are going through domestic violence, I’m sorry you have the reactions towards you that are dismissive. I hope you get the support you need and deserve.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

We are saying all men are, because when people say well actually no they aren't, there's a problem. No. That is whay you are insisting we are saying. Despite the very many women who have explained that is not what they are saying you return to this. Calling all the women who have posted liars!

I am more than happy to discuss violence against women. But only if women preface it with an acknowledgment that NAMALT! I just want to be able to discuss women's issues, on a board mostly used by women, without having to keep the same reserved, uber careful tongu in my head that I do in real life!

I've made several points in relation to that - namely that the majority of violence against women happens in the home by someone they know, so this focusing on males in the street and saying 'but I have a husband and sons so it's not misandry' is a bit...odd. Fuck all of that! Just stop! Misdirection, whataboutery, whatever you want to call it.

Male violence in all its guises is the issue.

I see the exclamation marks and telling me what to stop saying is back.

This is a discussion forum.

This is a discussion forum.

Then you might want to learn how to have a discussion rather than telling women what they should and shouldn’t say.

Misogynists who think they aren’t misogynists really are the worst.

@Deathgrip

This is a discussion forum.

Then you might want to learn how to have a discussion rather than telling women what they should and shouldn’t say.

Misogynists who think they aren’t misogynists really are the worst.

I haven't told women what they can't say. I just disagree.

Men can't win either

Hmmm, well, given the choice between:

1. having women side eye you as a potential rapist OR

1. Being brutally raped and murdered

I'd choose 1. But I cant because i am female.

I think I know what gender comes out of this relatively unscathed (men) and which gender is actually fighting for their right to stay alive and un harmed by men (hint- ITS WOMEN).

@mintybobs

Men can't win either

Hmmm, well, given the choice between:

1. having women side eye you as a potential rapist OR

1. Being brutally raped and murdered

I'd choose 1. But I cant because i am female.

I think I know what gender comes out of this relatively unscathed (men) and which gender is actually fighting for their right to stay alive and un harmed by men (hint- ITS WOMEN).

The reason you don't know the life you would live being painted as a potential rapist is because this doesn't happen to women.

use tragic events to stir up hatred, mistrust and discrimination against 50% of the population, the vast majority of whom have done nothing wrong.

How are men being discriminated against? Are they being asked to not go out after dark?

The only men who are experiencing any ire from me at the moment are the ones mansplaining why I shouldn’t be afraid of them if I’m out on a dark night. The ones who keep suggesting I need to just change my behaviour and stay home after dark if I am afraid of being attacked.

I don’t automatically trust any stranger, man or woman. But if I am walking to the tram after work, along the pretty dimly lit alley that it is virtually impossible for me to avoid, and a man comes the other way, of course it crosses my mind he could attack me, because men and women have been telling me since about birth that I need to try and protect myself from that. If that man is the genuinely good guy he wants to tell the world he really is, he will think nothing of making the simple gesture to cross over the road so I know he isn’t a threat.

I haven't told women what they can't say. I just disagree.

How fortunate for you, to have the privilege to be able to disagree.

The reason you don't know the life you would live being painted as a potential rapist is because this doesn't happen to women.

Are you honestly trying for sympathy for being potentially considered a threat on a thread filled with women who have been sexually assaulted, raped, threatened, harassed and traumatised by men? You have no self awareness.

If I approach a lost child and they won’t talk to me because they have been told not to speak to strangers, should I be offended? Tell them they are discriminating against me?

Grow the fuck up. It’s so unbelievably inappropriate for you to come to a forum mainly populated women, who are gathered here on this thread talking about the trauma caused by the actions of men (most of whom are living care free lives by the way), and complain that it’s not fair that we think you might be at threat. Go and talk to some men about this terrible hardship; we are not here to make you feel better.

I was abused as a child, by my own bloody father. Try growing up knowing that you can’t even trust your own parent. Try having that impact every relationship you’ve ever had. Then talk to me about how offensive it is for me to distrust you, the random stranger on the internet who is annoyed with women for something which is men’s fault, not ours.

Some men are asking on social media what they can do to help women feel safe if they're walking alone.

Most of the replies centre around giving women space on the street if you walk behind them or past them.

But some people are also very keen to point out that it's a tiny minority of men who are attackers - using the hashtag #NotAllMen.

www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/newsbeat-56361529

No, it’s not appropriate or ok to bust into a forum where men are asking women how we can help you feel more safe just to push your own agenda.

But out and start your own forum with the #NotAllMen.

@MintyMabel

use tragic events to stir up hatred, mistrust and discrimination against 50% of the population, the vast majority of whom have done nothing wrong.

How are men being discriminated against? Are they being asked to not go out after dark?

The only men who are experiencing any ire from me at the moment are the ones mansplaining why I shouldn’t be afraid of them if I’m out on a dark night. The ones who keep suggesting I need to just change my behaviour and stay home after dark if I am afraid of being attacked.

I don’t automatically trust any stranger, man or woman. But if I am walking to the tram after work, along the pretty dimly lit alley that it is virtually impossible for me to avoid, and a man comes the other way, of course it crosses my mind he could attack me, because men and women have been telling me since about birth that I need to try and protect myself from that. If that man is the genuinely good guy he wants to tell the world he really is, he will think nothing of making the simple gesture to cross over the road so I know he isn’t a threat.

Hang on .

Men are being told to change their behaviour and call out bollocks but are also wrong if they explain what they do to try and help?

I didn't agree necessarily with BLM either, but il don my tin hat
What a surprise. People who jump into a discussion about male violence towards women trying to centre the discussion on men, also had an issue with people discussing black people being disproportionately murdered by policy.

Tell us more about why we need to continue centring groups that don't have systemic racism and systemic sexism affecting all areas of their lives.

@LolaSmiles

I didn't agree necessarily with BLM either, but il don my tin hat What a surprise. People who jump into a discussion about male violence towards women trying to centre the discussion on men, also had an issue with people discussing black people being disproportionately murdered by policy.

Tell us more about why we need to continue centring groups that don't have systemic racism and systemic sexism affecting all areas of their lives.

We don't need to centre them.

Nobody needs to be centred. This is the point. All should be considered equally, in discussion and in life.

Not deciding to jump on a tragic event as an opportunity to shut down all discussion.

I see the exclamation marks and telling me what to stop saying is back. Erm. I like an exclamation mark. It is a visual representation of what I am thinking... unless I can access an interrobang, I'd use that out of preference.

And this is, as you say, a discussion. I can state my own view and you can choose to engage with it or not. I haven't told you what you can or cannot say. Just trying to work out why you insist on having men included in every discussion about women‽

Nobody needs to be centred. This is the point. All should be considered equally, in discussion and in life.

And yet we are not.
BAME people are not “considered equally”, and neither are women.

We are a long fucking way from equality of consideration.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

I see the exclamation marks and telling me what to stop saying is back. Erm. I like an exclamation mark. It is a visual representation of what I am thinking... unless I can access an interrobang, I'd use that out of preference.

And this is, as you say, a discussion. I can state my own view and you can choose to engage with it or not. I haven't told you what you can or cannot say. Just trying to work out why you insist on having men included in every discussion about women‽

Why do regular posters on these topics try and feign outrage that I would mention men when in actual fact, you have already brought men into the debate, I'm just rebuffing some of the points made about them?

What is the alternative? Endless echo chamber threads about how awful men are? There are lots of posters who would like that.

Nobody needs to be centred. This is the point. All should be considered equally, in discussion and in life.
Sounds like a fairly typical way of trying to deny the issues. If we don't draw attention to the issues that disproportionately affect specific groups then we can go on as normal and pretend that everything is just ok

Let's not centre the fact that black people were being murdered by the police... it might draw attention to it.
Let's not centre a discussion about male violence to women... it might draw attention to it.

I wonder who benefits from not shining a light on these things. 🤔

Not deciding to jump on a tragic event as an opportunity to shut down all discussion.
The only shutting down I see is people such as yourselves who are trying to close down women discussing male pattern violence by endlessly asking whataboutthemen whilst pretending it comes from a place of caring about a tragically murdered woman.

now now ladies, don't go talking about male violence to women. You don't need to shine a spotlight on this issue or centre women's experiences. You need to think about how men feel in all of this, and anyway why are you jumping on a tragic event. It's so inappropriate to discuss male violence against women after a woman has been murdered.
give me strength.

Why do we need to ensure we are pandering to men’s feelings - especially here, in a mostly female space - in order to be allowed to discuss this? Did it not occur to you at all to actually step back and just read women’s thoughts and feelings on the treatment they’ve received from men and reflect on that?

You very much are centring your feelings on it, and you are so used to being centred that you can’t stand it when you are not and have to wade in.

Feign? FEIGN? Bloody cheek! ‽‽‽‽‽

@Deathgrip

Why do we need to ensure we are pandering to men’s feelings - especially here, in a mostly female space - in order to be allowed to discuss this? Did it not occur to you at all to actually step back and just read women’s thoughts and feelings on the treatment they’ve received from men and reflect on that?

You very much are centring your feelings on it, and you are so used to being centred that you can’t stand it when you are not and have to wade in.

Why should they centre us?

We could do this all day but get nowhere.

Are you under the impression I'm a man?

We are a long fucking way from equality of consideration.
This. This. This.

It's a shame that point this out is met with waaawaawaaa poor men, you're all mean to men, what about men, why do you all hate men

@LolaSmiles

Nobody needs to be centred. This is the point. All should be considered equally, in discussion and in life. Sounds like a fairly typical way of trying to deny the issues. If we don't draw attention to the issues that disproportionately affect specific groups then we can go on as normal and pretend that everything is just ok

Let's not centre the fact that black people were being murdered by the police... it might draw attention to it.
Let's not centre a discussion about male violence to women... it might draw attention to it.

I wonder who benefits from not shining a light on these things. 🤔

Not deciding to jump on a tragic event as an opportunity to shut down all discussion.
The only shutting down I see is people such as yourselves who are trying to close down women discussing male pattern violence by endlessly asking whataboutthemen whilst pretending it comes from a place of caring about a tragically murdered woman.

now now ladies, don't go talking about male violence to women. You don't need to shine a spotlight on this issue or centre women's experiences. You need to think about how men feel in all of this, and anyway why are you jumping on a tragic event. It's so inappropriate to discuss male violence against women after a woman has been murdered.
give me strength.

The one you have italicised is flippant Lola, I think that's clear.

I am not saying anything in relation to a murdered woman, it's a wider debate.
I wouldn't be as crass to use her death in that way.

I am not saying anything in relation to a murdered woman, it's a wider debate.
I wouldn't be as crass to use her death in that way
The only people I see 'using'her death are those on this thread and others who seem to be saying that this discussion shouldn't take place because it's using someone's death, that people shouldn't joke about the awful advice telling women to stay in to avoid being murdered because now is the wrong time to mock at misogynistic guidance (don't forget that it was apparently very very mean to say men should stay in on curfew because poor men might get sad by that joke, but same people weren't up in arms at women being told it's their job to avoid murderers).

It does seem like there's a lot of shutting down here:
Whatabout the men
NAMALT
You all hate men
Don't talk about the issues of male violence to women after a murder because that's 'using' someone's death

It's so transparent.