The problem with "#NotAllMen"

[TheABC]

I read this on the BBC and it beautifully sums up the doublethink problem women face in society.

*"...some people are keen to point out that it's a tiny minority of men who are attackers - using the hashtag #NotAllMen.

"The issue with the argument is that women can't win," says Daisy.

"They want women to not treat all men as potential attackers, but then we also are asked to keep ourselves safe.

"Keeping ourselves safe means that we have to see everyone as potential attackers because if we were to say, 'OK, not all men, we will treat everyone as innocent until proven guilty", that's when these things happen.

"And that's when people say, she should have been more careful.

"So it's really tough, because I think it's an attitude that's really built into society."*

Is she (and I) being unreasonable?

Let's not derail, but that is very different to not all men.

SOME men and some of the females that are controlled by them don’t understand that when we ask men to stop acts of violence we are not saying ALL men commit these acts. But as PP have suggested that understanding it in a different context like BLM can make it easier to understand.

@Chatterbox1987 I whole heartedly agree with your reference to no all Muslims are terrorists. What's interesting is that posters dont really have a solid response to that and are spouting other nonsense.

Men attack men, men attack women, women attack men, women attack women, gang violence happens, terrorism happens... the solution is not to disregard a whole section of society I.e men as some kind of solution. It makes zero sense.

It's not about 'men cant win', or 'not wanting to hurt mens feelings' it's about moving forward with a solution that demonstrates equality...something so many of you have always seemed very passionate.

Of course it isn't all men, but those people who are wringing their hands and saying, its not all men are part of the problem.

It takes a majority of men to make the passing misogynistic comments stop to change the situation at all.
Even things like old men thinking that women shouldn't wear shorts if they don't want lecherous men staring at them.

A spotlight is being shone on male violence towards women and there's a discussion about male violence.

Absolutely this!

When discussing male violence against women no one should be bringing up male on male violence - not because it doesn’t matter but because right now the issue is male on female violence.

@Deathgrip

I am listening. I'm just not clear what it is you want me to do about that.

In my first post on the thread, I made what I think were some quite practical and constructive suggestions to tackle street harassment.
The only things I've read on here so far have either been vague, impractical or completely outrageous. Me listening, nodding and agreeing with everything isn't going to solve the problem.

You haven't done anything to deserve to not to be able to walk alone at night. If you choose to walk alone at night, that is entirely your choice. You're entitled to freedom as am I. But you don't get to curb the freedoms of innocent third parties in an attempt to guarantee your safety. I'm sorry for the things that have happened to you. I truly am. But I didn't do those things, so don't blame me for them. And guess what. I've also been subject to violence, violence from multiple attackers and violence requiring me to be hospitalised. Believe me, for quite some time after that I didn't feel remotely relaxed or comfortable about walking in the street. But at no point did I demand that people under a certain age should be subject to police-state style restrictions because they belong to a group that's responsible for a disproportionate amount of violence. A friend of mine was recently attacked in the street. He was robbed and then his assailants thought it would be fun to slice up his face. It turns out he wasn't the only person they attacked that day. Had he been aware of the danger in the area, I'm sure he would have been happy to heed advice to stay home rather than having to live with the scars.

Someone mentioned up thread about the low level sexism, mysogyny and jokes about women going unchecked in the normal male environment. It's true, that's where our men need to start taking a stand. DH showed me something on his sm from his male group. It was the banner stating 'International Women's Day' someone wrote 'should have ironed it'. Small but telling of normal male thinking.

@Silenceisgolden20

I wrote about my experience to help explain why some women respond the way they do the these threads about 'what about the men'

And I mostly get responses that the sex is irrelevant.

I wouldn't have been posting on this thread if a woman had raped or was violent against me.
I was trying to say where some of this anger comes from in women. It comes from their experiences of how they have been treated by men.

But I don't want to add to this anymore.

You made such a point of what the police told you, as if you feel they should have detained him specifically because it was male-on-female violence.

@toocold54

A spotlight is being shone on male violence towards women and there's a discussion about male violence.

Absolutely this!

When discussing male violence against women no one should be bringing up male on male violence - not because it doesn’t matter but because right now the issue is male on female violence.

But it's relative.

This whole campaign is based on the fact that women are most at risk of being killed while walking.

They aren't.

There are many good men, my DH included. However this is not the time nor the place. Go ring your all about the menz bell somewhere else and not after yet another women has died at the hands of a man

@toocold54

Let's not derail, but that is very different to not all men.

SOME men and some of the females that are controlled by them don’t understand that when we ask men to stop acts of violence we are not saying ALL men commit these acts. But as PP have suggested that understanding it in a different context like BLM can make it easier to understand.

I didn't agree necessarily with BLM either, but il Don my tin hat.

Some of the issues I face as a woman that I want to talk about without being shut down, silenced, trivialised, or falsely accused of hating all men:

I want to go dancing with my friends without being harassed by men who won’t respect no means no or who insist that it’s not ok or it’s somehow offensive that I am not interested in being intimate with them. And no buying me a drink is not some cheap arse way of purchasing sex.

If I want to end a relationship with a man I want to be free and able to do that safely. How many women have been assaulted and threatened with death threats when they attempt to leave their partner? How many women have been murdered in the process of leaving or after leaving their male partner? How many of these women went to the police after being assaulted and threatened with death threats (both of which are illegal by the way) and the only response is to issue the male perpetrator with a DV protection order (or whatever it is called in your part of the world). Basically it’s a piece of paper, it does very little to protect women and it absolutely does not hold the perpetrators to account for the assault or death threats they have committed. Wanna get away with committing assault, grievous bodily harm, deprivation of liberty, making death threats? Get yourself a girlfriend then. Want to tell me that isn’t true. Then why are domestic violence perpetrators not charged with assault or for making death threats or for deprivation of liberty. (Yes, some are but it is a tiny minority of cases) Why are they only charged after they successfully murdered the woman. Because every single woman I know who has tried to have charges laid against a male partner or ex who assaulted them etc has never succeeded in getting the police to lay charges. The fact there are so many women murdered who had involved the police is further evidence of that.

I want to be able to walk home after dark without being blamed for putting myself in danger.

And most importantly I don’t want my daughter to ever be raped, sexually assaulted, a victim of DV, or murdered.

I want my daughter to be safe. I want her to be regarded as having equal value and importance. I want her to have the freedom to live her life, to choose who she shares her life with, without it being such a huge risk.

No, not at all.
It was the patronising tone of the male officers telling me. It was a lot of things.
Again, i wouldn't have posted on this thread if a woman had done the things or raped me.

But it's relative.

No it’s not.

I live near the sea and many times people will drown/almost drown so we often have discussions on how we can prevent this. Many more people die from car accidents every year but I don’t bring this up during our meetings as it’s irrelevant to that issue.

[quote PoklingtonP]@Deathgrip

I am listening. I'm just not clear what it is you want me to do about that.

In my first post on the thread, I made what I think were some quite practical and constructive suggestions to tackle street harassment.
The only things I've read on here so far have either been vague, impractical or completely outrageous. Me listening, nodding and agreeing with everything isn't going to solve the problem.

You haven't done anything to deserve to not to be able to walk alone at night. If you choose to walk alone at night, that is entirely your choice. You're entitled to freedom as am I. But you don't get to curb the freedoms of innocent third parties in an attempt to guarantee your safety. I'm sorry for the things that have happened to you. I truly am. But I didn't do those things, so don't blame me for them. And guess what. I've also been subject to violence, violence from multiple attackers and violence requiring me to be hospitalised. Believe me, for quite some time after that I didn't feel remotely relaxed or comfortable about walking in the street. But at no point did I demand that people under a certain age should be subject to police-state style restrictions because they belong to a group that's responsible for a disproportionate amount of violence. A friend of mine was recently attacked in the street. He was robbed and then his assailants thought it would be fun to slice up his face. It turns out he wasn't the only person they attacked that day. Had he been aware of the danger in the area, I'm sure he would have been happy to heed advice to stay home rather than having to live with the scars.[/quote]
It’s like talking to a brick wall. Why do you think I’m asking you to find a solution? I am asking you to understand that the proposed condition you find so preposterous is how many women live our entire lives, and if we do not and something happens, we are often blamed for it.

Your complete outrage at even the possibility of similar restrictions is shocking to you. I am asking you to consider why that is, and why the responsibility for changing behaviour needs to fall on us once again.

Why are you so defensive? I didn’t say you were to blame - I said I am not to blame, and yet my life is curtailed because of it.

You say your friend would have appreciated a warning not to go out that day, in the same post you’re saying that men shouldn’t be restricted. So I’m guessing he wouldn’t appreciate being told to stay in after dark or avoid certain places for the rest of his life, and nor would you.

We have had enough, honestly, of tiptoeing through life to avoid pissing off men or being a victim to male violence. Definitely had enough of not having the same freedom as you, just because so many men feel entitled to our time, our attention and our bodies. Definitely had enough of our very existence between an invitation for unwanted attention and harassment.

But the idea that perhaps for once men should shoulder the burden on this limitation for once? Massively offensive, apparently.

@oceanbliss thank you for speaking out about DV and how ridiculous the law is to get a perpetrator convicted.
On a discussion about male violence. Not adding well women are violent too.
Thank you

I didn't agree necessarily with BLM either, but il Don my tin hat.

Of course you didn’t.

The Venn diagram of people who post “all lives matter” and “NAMALT” is a perfect circle.

I’m not sure why posters are arguing against @silenceisgolden20

Why should she have to stay at home when she is going through a trial for DV? Why should victims have to uproot themselves and go through hell when the perpetrators often get away with it? Why should some women be forced into continuing custody arrangements with men who have beaten them? There is a whole lot of things wrong at the moment.

I didn't agree necessarily with BLM either, but il Don my tin hat.

Of course you didn’t.
Because you have been taught that men especially white men as you are white are above the rest of society.

@Silenceisgolden20

No, not at all. It was the patronising tone of the male officers telling me. It was a lot of things. Again, i wouldn't have posted on this thread if a woman had done the things or raped me.

Well, you left that part out.

Well, it will show up because despite the efforts of some posters, this is not a dictatorship where only women matter. But it is a forum used manly by women.

This is a thread specifically about the effects of NAMALT on women's ability to talk freely, especially about the violence of males.

Some other areas here are spcificially about women's rights and still you choose to TWAW and NAMALT there too!

Thise 'whole campaign' is about the reasons why women are so abruptly challenged when they want to discuss male violence.

It's like women saying men can be violent is some kind of hate crime!

Doubly so because they don't start every sentence with "Whilst we all know and deplore the fact that men are so much more likley to be hurt by men than are women, can we please have a moment to discuss the issues around people's vioelnce against women?"

95+% of all violence is male violence - no matter who the victim.

95+% of all violence against women is perpetrated by men.

Can we discuss the latter please? Pretty please, if that helps!

@Dustyhedge

I’m not sure why posters are arguing against *@silenceisgolden20*

Why should she have to stay at home when she is going through a trial for DV? Why should victims have to uproot themselves and go through hell when the perpetrators often get away with it? Why should some women be forced into continuing custody arrangements with men who have beaten them? There is a whole lot of things wrong at the moment.

Why should she have to stay at home when she is going through a trial for DV?

Because from the point of view of the police and the courts, it's essentially one person's word against another's until the case is proven. If we want to live in a free society then we cannot just lock someone up on the mere say-so of someone else, or I could simply make up an accusation against someone I don't want to see around town and get them taken off the streets.

And when DV is done behind closed doors and attacks are done in secret, you can see where the problem is one word against another
And this is where men get away with it.

But hey, long as these violent men live in a free society eh?

I'm out of this discussion.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

Well, it will show up because despite the efforts of some posters, this is not a dictatorship where only women matter. But it is a forum used manly by women.

This is a thread specifically about the effects of NAMALT on women's ability to talk freely, especially about the violence of males.

Some other areas here are spcificially about women's rights and still you choose to TWAW and NAMALT there too!

Thise 'whole campaign' is about the reasons why women are so abruptly challenged when they want to discuss male violence.

It's like women saying men can be violent is some kind of hate crime!

Doubly so because they don't start every sentence with "Whilst we all know and deplore the fact that men are so much more likley to be hurt by men than are women, can we please have a moment to discuss the issues around people's vioelnce against women?"

95+% of all violence is male violence - no matter who the victim.

95+% of all violence against women is perpetrated by men.

Can we discuss the latter please? Pretty please, if that helps!

But we aren't saying men can be violent.

We are saying all men are, because when people say well actually no they aren't, there's a problem.

I am more than happy to discuss violence against women. I've made several points in relation to that - namely that the majority of violence against women happens in the home by someone they know, so this focusing on males in the street and saying 'but I have a husband and sons so it's not misandry' is a bit...odd.

@ILoveMyMonkey thx. I’ll keep looking and if I find it I’ll post it on here.