Is there any woman who hasn’t experienced male harrassment

[Twintub]

I was thinking about this and was initially thinking things have massively improved since I was young in the 80’s. I experienced flashers, a teacher tried to kiss me in high school he was married baby on the way, a pub boss whose girlfriend worked with him tried to kiss and grope me and another middle aged boss in my late 20s that pulled my trousers down at a night away for work. There were many more. Now I’m in my 40s I thought I don’t get bothered much but then I remembered 2 other pre covid instances. One late night train a drunk guy tried to chat to friend she politely said she wasn't interested and he got Aggressive calling her a speccy lesbian. Another instance my friend and I in a pub and a middle aged drunk man obviously on a business trip chatted up my friend she wasn’t interested I very nicely said we are just having a chat he turned on me and called me an ugly bitch He wasn’t talk h to me and I wasn’t a patch on her etc etc his work mates dragged him away.

What amazes me is men behave like this bit raise daughters who in turn get treated like this.

I'll turn that question around Lucie. Why report it?

I'm 52 and have never experienced any of the above.

I can't imagine that!

You're v lucky

No. Girls of my age all grew up thinking it was normal and to be expected.

@NiceGerbil

I'll turn that question around Lucie. Why report it?

Well because why would you just let that go? Someone putting their hands on you? I certainly wouldn't

I had a conversation with my mum about this, she’s now in her 60s. She worked as an air stewardess in the 1980s and said loads of passengers used to grope them or make lewd comments but they just laughed it off. Some of the pilots were “pervy” apparently but they knew which ones to avoid and it was seen as a joke “oh watch yourself with John, he’ll try it on with you but that’s just how he is.”

Even now, she isn’t bothered by it.

🤷🏻‍♀️

I've lost count tbh. Like everyone on here, it happens way too often. Its about power, men retaining control of women, and placing themselves above them (physically and metaphorically).

I've had arguments with men, which I've believed were going to end in rape.Just a way of degrading women, making them submit, and putting them back in their place. I've woken up to men having non consensual sex with me. Been stalked and harrassed by people I thought i was being kind to, who came to expect constant attention. As I've grown older I've learned not to be kind to everyone, because sadly people know how to manipulate this.

I've had someone create fake media accounts to try to contact me after I've blocked them, then send messages to people I know to get to me, they also sent letters and messages from other numbers. I just ignored ignored ignored, and eventually they gave up (well not heard anything from them in 2 months, and it wen on for about a year). But yeah got called all sorts by that one. Not even an ex, just someone i met once in a group of friends!

I've not had extreme assault or harassment but even in the past few years (I'm in mid 30s) the following has happened:

• young male on a bike intimidating me whilst I was in my car - zigzagging along the road so I couldn't overtake. I ended up beeping him and managed to overtake. When I stopped soon after at a roundabout to give way the man was on his bike next to my car and flung open the passenger door and verbally abused me and threatened to pull me out and "put a fucking smile on my face". My son was in the back (he was only a baby then) and I was petrified.
• when out for a run (which I tend to do only in summer as I won't go in dusk or dark) I regularly have white vans with tradesmen slow down and crawl along beside me. Typically the men talk v loudly about something to do with my body (eg commenting on my boobs or bum jiggling as I run). It's absolutely humiliating but the fact there are two or more of them plus a van is scary when I'm running alone.

Back when I was growing up men would regularly grab my boobs or bum when queuing at the bar. If you ever showed that you didn't find it acceptable the guy plus all his mates would immediately start verbally abusing you suggesting you must be frigid, a lesbian or that you should count yourself lucky to have the attention. Humiliating.

As @NiceGerbil said, good luck with that! I’ve never reported any of the groping incidents.

Just remembered... I also worked in a DIY shop for a few years from 16. At least once a fortnight male customers would refuse to take items out their basket for me to scan at checkout and instead id have to go round the counter, bend over and scan each item myself whilst they made comments about how "oh I like to watch you do that" or made jokes about me having missed an item right at the bottom so that I'd have to really bend over to check for missed items. It was always worse if the customers were with other men (eg. A group of mates or coworkers).

@Donotfeedthebears

That's interesting.
I'm your mother's age. I'm bothered by it because I have daughters. And yes it was bad when I was in my teens and twenties. It was so normalised then and word would get round who to avoid and who was OK.

But I'm incensed at how females have to learn from a young age how to fend off unwanted advances, how to cope with the bloke on the bus, how to react to being shouted at in the street, how to get home without endangering yourself and many other things

Trying to understand Lucie's pov.

So on the one hand women and girls often feel harassed when it's a thing Lucie personally doesn't mind.

But also they're in the wrong if they don't report something that Lucie would.

So are we under reacting or over reacting? Both I think.

Gosh women are usually wrong aren't we

@Roussette - she was surprised that if a man made leery comments to me at work I would report it. They used to just “laugh it off” apparently. One of the male base managers used to check their skirt length with a tape measure and feel their legs when he did it but it was just seen as being “his thing.” I was really surprised when she told me that.

@NiceGerbil

Trying to understand Lucie's pov.

So on the one hand women and girls often feel harassed when it's a thing Lucie personally doesn't mind.

But also they're in the wrong if they don't report something that Lucie would.

So are we under reacting or over reacting? Both I think.

Gosh women are usually wrong aren't we

I have no idea why you're intent on deliberately misinterpreting my points or goading me. Tbh I can't be arsed with either. I asked you a genuine question- why you wouldn't report being touched in an unwanted way? You didn't answer with "because it's not a violation of my boundaries", did you? And I didn't respond with "you're wrong", did I? You were deliberately evasive around answering it, and you instead fired a question back at me. For me, that would be a violation of my own boundaries. I was just curious as to whether it was for you, since you said you'd not bother reporting it. I make no judgment of you either way, I was simply curious.

@User26272829

As *@NiceGerbil* said, good luck with that! I’ve never reported any of the groping incidents.

Again, I'm curious as to why. I will state (again) for those intent on reading things into my posts that aren't there, that I make no judgment about why - I'm simply curious. Is it because for you this wouldn't constitute a boundary violation? Or is it because it wouldn't be taken seriously? Or something else?

@Donotfeedthebears

To be fair to your Mum, at that point when I was working in the seventies... it was so so normalised. I'm not saying by that, it was right, but it really was what you just put up with, or even expected.

I look back now in horror because it is not acceptable and I suppose having daughters brought that home for me.

I am expecting a baby girl and I’m scared what her world will look like.

Sexually abused as a child.
Pinned down in the playground at school (aged 5 or 6) by boys who forced themselves on top of me and kissed me.
Groped and shouted at in the street and in bars.
Friend and I were surrounded and intimidated by a group of men one night while on holiday in Turkey.
While on crowded public transport as a teenager men rubbed up against me while I stood scared and frozen to the spot (happened several times).
Shouted at by men in car while out running ("lovely big fat arse").
Too many more incidents to list.

Gosh, that was both therapeutic and rage-inducing! My 11 yo DD has learning difficulties and I'm genuinely scared for her future. Suspect it be too long before I have a gentle chat with 9yo DS about appropriate communication/behaviour with women.

@Sendmetobarbados

Sexually abused as a child. Pinned down in the playground at school (aged 5 or 6) by boys who forced themselves on top of me and kissed me. Groped and shouted at in the street and in bars. Friend and I were surrounded and intimidated by a group of men one night while on holiday in Turkey. While on crowded public transport as a teenager men rubbed up against me while I stood scared and frozen to the spot (happened several times). Shouted at by men in car while out running ("lovely big fat arse"). Too many more incidents to list.

Gosh, that was both therapeutic and rage-inducing! My 11 yo DD has learning difficulties and I'm genuinely scared for her future. Suspect it be too long before I have a gentle chat with 9yo DS about appropriate communication/behaviour with women.

Forgot that I was also sexually harassed at work by a boss who once kissed me in a taxi and made sexual comments towards me.

For most women and girls they don't report based on how violated or angry they felt.

They report or not based on whether they think anything will come of it. Whether there is any point. For a large number of women and girls they decide there's no point, for the full range of sex based crimes they experience, up to and including rape.

Wow! So many horror stories. Nothing like that has ever happened to me.

I've got a visible disability which must make me invisible.

Yes when younger. I've also been told I'm too unattractive / fat to be sexually assaulted so I don't need to worry.

The man who subjected me to mental abuse in a relationship and subsequently raped me post-relationship was a 'nice' guy too. Studious, computer programmer, nerdy, quiet, the type of man a lot have described on this thread of being the 'safe' type of man.

What's the answer though? We can't ban testosterone. Men have been this way for thousands of years, how can that change?

@NiceGerbil

For most women and girls they don't report based on how violated or angry they felt.

They report or not based on whether they think anything will come of it. Whether there is any point. For a large number of women and girls they decide there's no point, for the full range of sex based crimes they experience, up to and including rape.

Thank you - that's literally all I was asking

I genuinely HONESTLY cannot fathom how any woman past the age of 25 has not been sexually harassed, sexually assaulted, catcalled, whistled at, groped, hassled, told to smile, physically assaulted, yelled at, called a slag, (or a whore, or a miserable bitch,) had a man try it on, or been chatted up by an older (usually married) man.

Not ALL of the above maybe, but I can't get my head around how any woman has never had any of this happen.

It's unfathomable!