Is there any woman who hasn’t experienced male harrassment

[Twintub]

I was thinking about this and was initially thinking things have massively improved since I was young in the 80’s. I experienced flashers, a teacher tried to kiss me in high school he was married baby on the way, a pub boss whose girlfriend worked with him tried to kiss and grope me and another middle aged boss in my late 20s that pulled my trousers down at a night away for work. There were many more. Now I’m in my 40s I thought I don’t get bothered much but then I remembered 2 other pre covid instances. One late night train a drunk guy tried to chat to friend she politely said she wasn't interested and he got Aggressive calling her a speccy lesbian. Another instance my friend and I in a pub and a middle aged drunk man obviously on a business trip chatted up my friend she wasn’t interested I very nicely said we are just having a chat he turned on me and called me an ugly bitch He wasn’t talk h to me and I wasn’t a patch on her etc etc his work mates dragged him away.

What amazes me is men behave like this bit raise daughters who in turn get treated like this.

The Equality Act 2010 defines sexual harassment as:

unwanted conduct of a sexual nature, which has the purpose or effect of either: (a) violating the complainant’s dignity; or (b) creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment for the complainant.

Irrespective of your personal interpretation of harassment, you knew that unwanted comments and cat calls could constitute harassment which is why you mentioned them on a thread about harassment.

So I’m not convinced that the reasons some women are saying they haven’t been harassed because they set the bar higher than others, because it is clear, from your post and others, that some women just haven’t experienced very much of it.

@TatianaBis

The Equality Act 2010 defines sexual harassment as:

unwanted conduct of a sexual nature, which has the purpose or effect of either: (a) violating the complainant’s dignity; or (b) creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment for the complainant.

Irrespective of your personal interpretation of harassment, you knew that unwanted comments and cat calls could constitute harassment which is why you mentioned them on a thread about harassment.

So I’m not convinced that the reasons some women are saying they haven’t been harassed because they set the bar higher than others, because it is clear, from your post and others, that some women just haven’t experienced very much of it.

But we DO all have different interpretations of what constitutes a violation of dignity / creation of a hostile environment etc. That much is clear by the fact that one person might report being catcalled and feel very violated by it; whilst another wouldn't feel that way and would do nothing.

That's the point - the definition itself contains come degree of subjective interpretation on the part of the person on the receiving end of the behaviour. Unlike being physically touched, for example, which is more clear cut in terms of it being a very physical boundary violation (and certainly would be for me). But a person making a comment or whistling at me, doesn't violate my own personal boundaries in the same way - it just makes me momentarily uncomfortable and then I think "what a dick" and move on. That's not to say my response is the "correct" one, nor is it to minimise others' responses which may be very different to mine - it's simply to say that we all do have varying definitions of what constitutes a boundary violation and creates a hostile or intimidating environment for us. Because we are all different as humans. That's inevitable.

So - my point is - I chose not to do anything about that behaviour or regard it as harassment- that's a valid response on my part, as it fits with my own personal boundaries. Another woman may choose to act on this behaviour and regard it as harassment- that's an equally valid response on her part as it fits with her own personal boundaries.

So I’m not convinced that the reasons some women are saying they haven’t been harassed because they set the bar higher than others,

It's not about "setting the bar higher" - it's about natural individual differences in how we interpret things as humans. If I got touched up randomly on a night out, or if someone puts their hands on me in any other context I haven't consent to - I've been assaulted. I'd report them, no questions. Because I'm clear in my own mind that this violates my own boundaries. The other stuff that I have experienced, doesn't. But that's not to negate the experiences of women for whom it does. I'm not sure how to make that any clearer to be honest.

Of course we do. But nonetheless, even though you don’t personally interpret cat calls and comments as harassment or violation you still mentioned them on the thread. That is my point.

I’m not convinced the women on this thread who have said they have not experienced harassment are either ignorant of the legal definitions or set a personal bar so high that they discount a whole raft of unwanted attention from men as harassment.

They just haven’t experienced very much of any of it. Your post is a case in point.

Just heard Harriet Batman suggest any man kerb crawling or abusing a girl should have his licence removed. What an excellent idea

That’s a brilliant idea NoMackerelInSwindon

So many men don’t understand how threatening this can feel or that it makes us feel so uncomfortable they see it as a bit of fun or we are being complimented

Kerb crawling is also illegal.

Probably another crime the police see as not very important, like indecent exposure.

@LucieStar

So - my point is - I chose not to do anything about that behaviour or regard it as harassment- that's a valid response on my part, as it fits with my own personal boundaries. Another woman may choose to act on this behaviour and regard it as harassment- that's an equally valid response on her part as it fits with her own personal boundaries.

You seem to be very much stuck on this track of interpretation. Can you not see that altho you didn’t interpret comments as harassment, you listed them here nonetheless and said that you haven’t received much of this kind of attention.

So we know:

1. You don’t feel wolf whistles and comments are harassment
2. You haven’t experienced much anyway.

That is the point.

Why are women told repeatedly by the authorities or those who are putting their perspective like the retired officer constantly signalling that women shouldn't bother reporting, it's not serious.

And the media give them airtime to do it.

Does that happen with any other crimes?

Of course we do. But nonetheless, even though you don’t personally interpret cat calls and comments as harassment or violation you still mentioned them on the thread. That is my point.

I mentioned them to illustrate my point - that whilst they are included within the definition of behaviours that can be regarded as sexual harassment - they are not conceptualised that way by all women, and therefore in answer to the OP - yes, some women may have experienced what another person would regard as sexual harassment, without necessarily conceptualising it this way themselves (like me). Hence, on paper, if you asked women "have you experienced any of these behaviours?", and you included catcalling / whistling, I'd respond with yes, and others might conclude "she's experienced harassment then". But to conclude from that response that I've been sexually harassed would be incorrect, because if you followed this up by asking me "did you feel violated or degraded by this?", my answer would be no. So that precludes that particular experience from being labelled as sexual harassment in my case. I felt it was relevant to the OP for those reasons.

Perhaps I'm not making my point very clear...

If I got touched up randomly on a night out, or if someone puts their hands on me in any other context I haven't consent to - I've been assaulted. I'd report them, no questions.'

Really? God I wouldn't! And never have.

Good luck with that with the cops

*Can you not see that altho you didn’t interpret comments as harassment, you listed them here nonetheless and said that you haven’t received much of this kind of attention.
*
I didn't just list them, though - you'll note that I added a caveat that I didn't feel sufficiently upset by them to regard them as harassment.

@NiceGerbil

If I got touched up randomly on a night out, or if someone puts their hands on me in any other context I haven't consent to - I've been assaulted. I'd report them, no questions.'

Really? God I wouldn't! And never have.

Good luck with that with the cops

Well it's never happened to me, but I would feel very violated if it did, that's for sure

We were taught in self defence at school to report sex offences no matter how minor as there was evidence that behaviour could escalate and the perp could go on to more serious crimes. Our lectures were given by a retired policeman.

Wayne Couzens may be a case in point, as he appears to have been linked to an indecent exposure report a few days previously.

Lucie you're entitled to your views.

I had a man shout 'get your tits out' at me out of a car when I was walking home from school aged about 13.

Your point is that you would not be bothered by this but I was. Of course i didn't report it, or anything else expect one incident which was worse and i was worried about escalation.

You seem very black and white.

These incidents build up as for many women and girls it's not s one off. Over time it makes you feel more wary, it kind of wears you down.

The vast vast majority do not report. Any of it.

So how does that fit into your views?

@LucieStar

*Can you not see that altho you didn’t interpret comments as harassment, you listed them here nonetheless and said that you haven’t received much of this kind of attention. * I didn't just list them, though - you'll note that I added a caveat that I didn't feel sufficiently upset by them to regard them as harassment.

I know! As above:

So we know:
1. You don’t feel wolf whistles and comments are harassment
2. You haven’t experienced much anyway.

Your point is perfectly clear, you’re just not listening.

@NiceGerbil

Lucie you're entitled to your views.

I had a man shout 'get your tits out' at me out of a car when I was walking home from school aged about 13.

Your point is that you would not be bothered by this but I was. Of course i didn't report it, or anything else expect one incident which was worse and i was worried about escalation.

You seem very black and white.

These incidents build up as for many women and girls it's not s one off. Over time it makes you feel more wary, it kind of wears you down.

The vast vast majority do not report. Any of it.

So how does that fit into your views?

How does what fit into my views? I've stated (repeatedly now) that it's entirely valid for any woman to view catcalling as a violation of their boundaries and to report it, and that my feelings on the matter are not the "correct way", just my personal feelings. How am I black and white when I've acknowledged that others feel differently and that's perfectly valid?

Your point is perfectly clear, you’re just not listening.

Not listening to what, exactly?

@NiceGerbil
So you wouldn't report anything if a random man touched you sexually on a train for example? Why not?

@LucieStar

Your point is perfectly clear, you’re just not listening.

Not listening to what, exactly?

That I’m well well aware that women interpret their experiences very differently.

But that however one interprets one’s own personal experiences, women still know roughly what falls under the objective banner of harassment even if they don’t subjectively interpret it thus.

So I do not think that is the key to why some women report not having experienced much harassment on this thread. From what they have said, yourself included, they have not experienced much under any interpretation.

In the lower level stuff that’s cultural shift in the more worrying stuff in terms of rape and murder etc I wonder if we need prevention I am sure once you are caught there are sessions and therapy but equally I am sure there are men that battle these thoughts every day in the way an alcoholic might but have no access to help for fear. If we could create some kind of preemptive help that wouldn’t be good ? Just a thought

Flashed at - both as a school girl and twenty-something.

As a 14 year old, was spied on by a teenager in campsite shower.

Groped in seedy nightclubs.

Man attempted to drag me back to his after getting off a night bus at the same stop as me.

Objectified and either selected or not selected for work teams on the basis of looks.

At a job interview, told that as the bar area was tight, I would have to put up with being brushed past and had better not be one of those types to complain about it.

I count myself very lucky. I have not suffered from any serious attacks, abuse or harassment. I am surprised that there is anyone who has not suffered from similar incidents to mine.

I haven't been able to read the whole thread, apologies. However, may I ask you to consider giving evidence to the Home Office Violence Against Women and Girls (VAWG) Call for Evidence please?

Due to this week's sad events, this call for evidence from the government has been reopened until 26 March 2021.

I feel pretty powerless at the moment and completing this at least made me feel that I'd done as much as I could have done given the circumstances. The more women and girls that share this evidence, the more hopeful I am that someone will listen and act on our behalf.

www.gov.uk/government/consultations/violence-against-women-and-girls-vawg-call-for-evidence?fbclid=IwAR04MhLM356voRUFsxw3PQBimYXz284xTtxZ7dc9o7-IxPqP6YuP0UR5cXA

Thank you.

I was explaining to my dh and ds’s last night that I was 10yrs old the first time a man grabbed my arse. I was queuing for a slide thing at longleat and I thought it must had been a mistake as it was really busy but he went to the front and waved at me just as I was about to go down to make sure that I knew that he did it intentionally.

Far too many incidents since then to list. Fucking sucks to be a woman