The men I know feel like this too ...

[Givitarest]

This "Every woman you know" meme is trending on social media. But men are in danger from violent men too and, in fact, are much more likely to be a target. With reference to Jess Phillips, if a politician were to read out the names of all the men who had died at the hands of other men, as well as the women, it would be a very long list indeed. If society has "just accepted" dead women then we have just accepted dead men too.
I fear for my sons' safety, and give them very similar safety advice as I would if they were daughters. My husband has always taken similar measures to the things on this list (whilst also avoiding walking behind lone women etc) and has had more negative personal experiences than I have. So can people please stop sharing memes that demonise men? It is 'misandry' ... the antonym to mysogyny ... and the movement against violence will not win widespread support unless it is more appropriately framed.

@Hoppinggreen my teen DD won’t run for same reason.

I’m so, so sick of it.

We live in a naice residential area. The men catcalling her are doing so from their 4x4 and luxury saloons. Probably on their way home to their naice houses and their naice wives and their naice lives.

They probably don’t give my DDs a second thought - why would they? But she has changed her life, significantly, because those naice men can’t behave like decent human beings.

Nobody is demonising men. I too have a son and give him safety advice but let's be honest, the chances of men in a van slowing down and making explicitly sexual comments at him aged eleven is way smaller than if he were a girl. One would be rare, the other is common place.
Pointing out the misogyny that women and girls face isn't being anti-men. It is, however, incredibly dismissive of the reality of the world women have to live in.

@BrittyBrassic

Has anyone seen the clip from Daniel Sloss' stand up? (Not RTFT).

I love the bit where he says 9 out of 10 men may be good but when 1 is not and the other 9 do nothing then they may as well not fucking be there.

Yes - posted a link to something with the video in at around 09:47 - tho' a direct link to the video would be helpful.

It's excellent and a gutwrench.

I think public places should be safer for everyone, women and men.

Better lighting, better patrols, better camera monitoring.

@PegasusReturns. I run. I run 5 times a week. Every time I run I think about rape. Sometimes for a few seconds, sometimes for longer.

I am increasingly alert when I hear someone come up behind me; I give a wide berth to a particular deserted corner of the park; my heart rate quickens if a car pulls alongside me; I risk assess every man that runs towards me: how old, how big, how fit; I wonder if I’m too far away from other people for them to hear me scream.

These are fleeting thoughts; often barely even conscious. But they occur every time I run. My DH has never thought about being raped on his run.

This. To be honest, I’ve not really thought about it much before, but it’s true. I’m 60. I don’t run, but do have a (small) dog who I walk daily in the woods, or on rural footpaths. Sometimes the woods are v busy, but if they’re quiet I find I risk assess any man I meet - is he running? Is he on a bike? Does he have a dog with him? How far away from me is he? Is this a particularly quiet section of the wood? Why is he here? Does he speak to me? Same with the footpaths. This is in broad daylight. If I am on my own, I never 100% relax. It shouldn’t be like this.

I doubt many men do the same.

I feel I should add that a friend of mine was murdered many years ago, so this probably colours my attitude.

Sorry for the long post but I do not think you are right, op.

I have four brothers and no sisters.
Two of my brothers never shared a punch in their lives (now in their 40s).
The other two got in a few scraps when they were teens/young adults, but neither they nor the other lads got into serious harm.
One of those two was followed home by three lads who jumped him and beat him up, leaving him bruised and bloody but intact - the scariest incident involving my brothers.

I was raped by a friend when I was 15, and by a stranger when I was 17.

I was followed home from where I got out of a taxi when I was 23 (a distance of 50 metres) - I wasn't quick enough getting into my apartment building and the prick broke my hand by slamming the door on it, then he knocked me to the floor and tried to assault me but I screamed with all my power and hit him across the face with my keys. He took my bag and ran off.

Another time, I was mugged and sexually assaulted while walking home from a pub, at 9pm.

My friends and I have been groped so many times while out, I couldn't try to give you a ballpark number. I didn't dress evocatively, but I'm small and busty and my friends would tell me I have a sweet, innocent look about me. Maybe that was it?

However, most recently, now 38, quite frumpy for my years and wearing a face mask, I was followed from the supermarket by a man who would not take the hint, even when I sternly told him I wasn't interested. I had to take a circular route around my home because I was afraid of him finding out where I live. Eventually, I approached a random group of people and asked them to pretend they knew me as the fella behind was freaking me out. They kindly obliged and waited until he gave up and wandered off. This was at 6 in the evening.

I don't like going out alone anywhere, at any time of day. Im hyper-aware of my surroundings and my skin prickles when I feel someone walking behind me. I've talked with my brothers about this and they can't fathom it.

All these attacks, bar one or two non-threatening but uninvited gropes in the ladies room, were by men. Women do not make me fear for my life or safety.

What’s crazy is that even with men more likely to be killed by strangers that its always women who are lectured to about keeping off the streets. If a man was killed near me I couldn’t imagine people lecturing their sons to be careful and not go out etc. I mean I’m sure some do but the police haven’t ever issued warnings for men to pair up and not go out at night etc.

What language have you come across that is more offensive than the rape and murder of women?

I agree OP violence is violence and pretending it is always a man attacking a woman is ridiculous.
In addition, the victim blaming against both men and women victims is awful.

@itwillallbeokay

Serial killer Joanne (can't remember surname) murdered 3 men in Peterborough.

And your point is?

I walk my dog every day in broad daylight, she's she's big dog, a rhodesian ridgeback, and she looks scary enough (she's a softie really though). I still carry out a mental risk assessment for every male I see, and now I have to worry about whether they will attack me or try to steal her ffs. I also do it whenever a tradesman comes to my house, if I open my door to a delivery guy, whenever I walk across a supermarket carpark, whenever I walk across the badly lit carpark to my kids nursery for fucks sake. I walked across a carpark yesterday hand in hand with my husband yesterday and it was so relaxing to not do that risk assessment. I don't think men get it at all. It's exhausting being angry and it's exhausting being scared, and I'm just so fed up of it. I have a son and a daughter, and I never want either of them to feel this way.

@Brefugee

Sweet can you suggest what my DD 12 can do differently when walking home from school in uniform to prevent unwanted sexual attention from another woman's husband/dad/brother/uncle?

OMG. I just had a thought. You know when clueless people say things like "it's awful i just imagine if it were my mum/wife/daughter/sister..." and we all roll our eyes and say "mate, women aren't defined by their relationship to you or any other man, they are human beings in their own right"?

How about when we talk about the people who have catcalled, groped, raped etc us, we say "blimey, someone's son grabbed my boob today" or "someone's husband in a white van catcalled me today"

Would that drive it home?

I once read here that many men will only sit up and take notice when another man does something towards one of their own women so cat calls their daughter or groped their wife. As for some she's an extension of them (property almost) so they see the offence as a slight towards them.

@LittleMimi

What’s crazy is that even with men more likely to be killed by strangers that its always women who are lectured to about keeping off the streets. If a man was killed near me I couldn’t imagine people lecturing their sons to be careful and not go out etc. I mean I’m sure some do but the police haven’t ever issued warnings for men to pair up and not go out at night etc.

Because largely male victims are blamed for being killed. It’s always assumed they are part of a gang or criminals in a turf war and that their death is largely caused by their own involvement in such things. It’s much easier to see a female victim as an innocent and therefore a need to warn other “innocents” to stay off the streets. Men are presumed not innocent so are not warned.

10th rule of misogyny, OP

So just so I'm understanding this right, you're upset about the demonising of men, despite acknowledging that men are the attackers of both women and men?

Just saying "against violence" isn't good enough. Sure men are victims too but FFS, can women have a moment to talk about their fears and frustrations without someone piping up with "men are attacked too you know!" Yes they are, by other men.

Men are the problem, the patriarchal culture is the problem, and taking the spotlight away from that is to do a disservice to all the women that live with this ingrained fear.

Actually, OP, I agree with your first post.I don't interpret it as you denying that male aggression/violence is the central problem; I interpret it as you saying that it isn't just women who are vulnerable, and that turning it into a "wimmin's issue" runs the risk of losing general support for the obvious problem - namely that there are some vile people out there (mostly men, as they are the ones with greater physical strength), and some of them even find their way into positions of authority.

Those things are completely unacceptable. But they are not just a problem for women and girls.

I have sons and daughters (all 17+). I have always told all of them, boys and girls alike, never to walk home on their own. Even if it's only a mile, they need to call a cab. If they can't pay, I will. The risk to boys is different, in that they are unlikely to be the victims of a sexual attack - but they are far more likely than the girls to be beaten up in an act of random violence. One of my sons is gay, and he would unfortunately be a target for certain groups of young men fuelled by alcohol and one another.

I have never particularly felt vulnerable as a woman per se. I haven't lived my life in fear of attacks. I have always taken sensible precautions and haven't put myself in situations where I might end up in the hands of some screwed up and violent individual - but my sons do the same.

This really shouldn't be turned into a 'women as potential victims' problem, when it's a bigger issue than this.

you want to join a campaign against violence - but you can't join THIS campaign about violence because it points out that the cause of the violence you want to campaign about is men?

How would you like it phrased to make it more palatable?

93% of killers - MEN
93,1 of convicted domestic abusers - MEN
97% of 18-24 year old women have experiences some form of harassment or abuse from MEN

Yes 'men too' we get that - victims of violence from other MEN

So we are all better if we campaign to stop MEN being cunts

Maybe the reality is different where you live, but I assure you the men and boys I grew up with and those I am around today do not experience the feelings described in the image you posted.

I know the don’t experience it because the times I have explained to any man in my sphere even the basics of what it’s like, they’ve been completely shocked.

There is nothing divisive about being honest about the experience of women. Preventing violence against women does not take anything away from men.

Serial killer Joanne (can't remember surname) murdered 3 men in Peterborough

I watched a documentary the other day about a young girl, I can't remember her name now, who murdered someone when she was a child herself.

Therefore any time anyone wants to discuss the problem of violence or abuse toward children, I'll just say 'BUT LOOK, CHILDREN CAN BE VIOLENT TOO'.

plop plop

and that turning it into a "wimmin's issue" runs the risk of losing general support for the obvious problem

Because I refuse to accept that a lot of what's posted on this thread are not 'wimmins issues'.

Ask your husband, partner, brother or gather when the last time he was catcalled or had someone drive past in a van and shout sexually inappropriate comments to him...

ODFO

@Brefugee

I'm very happy to be married to one of the good ones, and the men i know well also don't put up with sexist (or racist or homophobic) stuff.

We were on a train once on the way back from a football match. Loads of (mostly male) fans, quite a few tipsy, some drunk, most happy (we'd won). There were two young women in jeans and t-shirts (warm weather) minding their own business, talking to each other. When one massive guy reached over and slapped one on the bum and "how about a threesome".

So i grabbed his hand and told him to apologise and not treat women like that. One of his mates looked at my DH and said "aren't you embarassed to be with a gobby woman like that?"

His reply was something like "if he'd grabbed that guys's hand it would have been a lot more painful, but no, he was more than happy to be out with someone who looks out for other people".

But most of the other men in the carriage were looking at their feet. Some other fans moved aside to let the girls move away, but that was about it. It's endemic. And it's pathetic.

But these men are someone's son/husband/father/brother. Call them on it. Every time (if you feel safe to do so)

I think the posters with DSs are going to see where the OP is coming from here.

well, most of us see the poster's DSs as people, so yeah, we can empathise. Pity more people don't see our DD's as people a bit more, isn't it?

Good for him Brefugee as that took courage.

@MumsTheWordFact

Loving this thread and how people are talking as if there are no female murderers or females that commit violence, of course its less prevalent by far, but it does exist so please don't talk as if it doesn't.

An excellent idea for a thread so go ahead and start one.

Viques 👏