The men I know feel like this too ...

[Givitarest]

This "Every woman you know" meme is trending on social media. But men are in danger from violent men too and, in fact, are much more likely to be a target. With reference to Jess Phillips, if a politician were to read out the names of all the men who had died at the hands of other men, as well as the women, it would be a very long list indeed. If society has "just accepted" dead women then we have just accepted dead men too.
I fear for my sons' safety, and give them very similar safety advice as I would if they were daughters. My husband has always taken similar measures to the things on this list (whilst also avoiding walking behind lone women etc) and has had more negative personal experiences than I have. So can people please stop sharing memes that demonise men? It is 'misandry' ... the antonym to mysogyny ... and the movement against violence will not win widespread support unless it is more appropriately framed.

YABU

Sweet can you suggest what my DD 12 can do differently when walking home from school in uniform to prevent unwanted sexual attention from another woman's husband/dad/brother/uncle?

This is fucking wrong and is an example of exactly what the tweet posted by the OP is speaking to.

Every single woman has examples of this kind of shit happening, regardless of time of day or environment. That's the point being made. Unwanted attention, with an undertone of aggression, doesn't just happen at night in an alleyway, it happens all day, anywhere. In fact, anecdotally it would appear to happen mostly in the daylight - certainly if I detailed all my own experiences of it, very little happened at night time. I suspect that might be the case for lots of women.

It is both dangerous to women and lets men off the hook to simply say "take precuations and don't walk alone at night". That is not the answer and to accept it as a workaround means the answer is no longer fought for. The answer is for men not to kill women.

As someone who loves a number of men, I'd also like men not to kill other men. The former does not prevent me from wanted the latter.

That's very interesting @Brefugee

It would invite the immediate response that women are not responsible for men's behaviour but, it also opens the 'his poor wife / mother / sister / daughter, having to put up with and be embarrassed by a husband / son etc like that!

So many men harass women in public and at work. It's very rare that anyone admits that their husband behaves that way. I suspect that most do not tell their wives they do it and don't do it in front of them. (Of course the nastiest ones are probably also very nasty to their female family members but the casual ones, the everyday catcalls and lewd comments that come form apparently normal-looking men? I suspect a lot of it is public-realm-only behaviour).

I have sons and I'm extremely worried about them too. Everytime there's a new story in the news. A new court case being argued based on what she's wearing. When I get cat called going past the builders site on the way to work. When a friend came to me because her husband raped her. When my husband came home and told me he almost got fired for having a go at the boss for talking about the new SIXTEEN year old pot wash like she was a piece of meat. I worry that one day, that will be my boys. That the next news story I could here could be about what they have done. Its not acceptable and its up to us, and most importantly MEN to teach boys better.

There are some interesting pie charts in the Telegraph this morning. Something like 4 times as many men as women are murdered every year but more than half of the women are murdered by people they know and mostly men. Men are more likely to be murdered by a stranger.
I have a daughter and a son so I dont want to turn it into a man v woman thing as I don't think that is healthy. Domestic violence has peaked during lock down so maybe some of the lockdown fanatics need to also take responsibility for some deaths? We need to look at the causes of these events and deal with those rather than knee jerk all men are banned..

www.instagram.com/p/CMQVU0nsk5M/?igshid=1gz993uwciv8v.

Have a read of this @Givitarest, it show the problem and the solution.

@AndAPartridgeInABearTree I only have DDs
I think the posters with DSs are going to see where the OP is coming from here.

Do men get catcalled when they are running by other men?

Do men get lewd comments about their boobs from other men?

Do men get touched up on trains, in nightclubs etc by other men?

Do men get an aggressive response when being chatted up by another man and they say no?

I've not experienced this from the men in my life. Speaking to DH, he has never done anything like tell his mates the address and name of his date (pre me of course!) in case he didn't come home, noted the reg of a taxi before getting in it, had 999 ready on his phone just in case when walking late. And honestly I highly highly doubt many, if any, of the men I know have done anything like that either, certainly not on a regular basis.

And whilst male on male violence is still a problem... It's still men that are the problem isn't it.

The question should really be how many men do you know who do any of the things in your list because they are terrified of being murdered or attacked by a woman. None I'd imagine.

[quote ithinkigetit]**@AndAPartridgeInABearTree* I only have DDs*
I think the posters with DSs are going to see where the OP is coming from here.[/quote]
I have sons and I don't. I'm sick of the 'what about the men' stuff.

@Disfordarkchocolate

www.instagram.com/p/CMQVU0nsk5M/?igshid=1gz993uwciv8v.

Have a read of this @Givitarest, it show the problem and the solution.

Great post

Is anyone else just fucking angry all the time about this? A tweet that doesn't even mention men, just describes women's experiences, and it's 'what about teh menz?' 'Namalt' 'stop demonising men' 'frame the argument nicely' etc etc.

God I just want to explode. We are talking about women, about their lives, their experiences, their wholy justifiable fears. You want to talk about men, fine, go start your own discussion, somewhere else. We are women and we have the right to talk about our experiences, and our fears, and our fears for our children. And by God we have the right to demand that men do something to address the vast number of incidents of violence perpetrated by their sex.

Gah, I'm just fucked off by it all.

[quote ithinkigetit]**@AndAPartridgeInABearTree* I only have DDs*
I think the posters with DSs are going to see where the OP is coming from here.[/quote]
I have a DS. I still certainly don't agree that it's the same problem for men as it is women.

Don't get me wrong, I still worry about my son. I worry that he may get in a fight when out when he's older for example. I don't worry about him doing mundane every day things like walking home from work in the same way I would DD though.

The worry is different imo.

I'm very happy to be married to one of the good ones, and the men i know well also don't put up with sexist (or racist or homophobic) stuff.

We were on a train once on the way back from a football match. Loads of (mostly male) fans, quite a few tipsy, some drunk, most happy (we'd won). There were two young women in jeans and t-shirts (warm weather) minding their own business, talking to each other. When one massive guy reached over and slapped one on the bum and "how about a threesome".

So i grabbed his hand and told him to apologise and not treat women like that. One of his mates looked at my DH and said "aren't you embarassed to be with a gobby woman like that?"

His reply was something like "if he'd grabbed that guys's hand it would have been a lot more painful, but no, he was more than happy to be out with someone who looks out for other people".

But most of the other men in the carriage were looking at their feet. Some other fans moved aside to let the girls move away, but that was about it. It's endemic. And it's pathetic.

But these men are someone's son/husband/father/brother. Call them on it. Every time (if you feel safe to do so)

I think the posters with DSs are going to see where the OP is coming from here.

well, most of us see the poster's DSs as people, so yeah, we can empathise. Pity more people don't see our DD's as people a bit more, isn't it?

@katmarie

Is anyone else just fucking angry all the time about this? A tweet that doesn't even mention men, just describes women's experiences, and it's 'what about teh menz?' 'Namalt' 'stop demonising men' 'frame the argument nicely' etc etc.

God I just want to explode. We are talking about women, about their lives, their experiences, their wholy justifiable fears. You want to talk about men, fine, go start your own discussion, somewhere else. We are women and we have the right to talk about our experiences, and our fears, and our fears for our children. And by God we have the right to demand that men do something to address the vast number of incidents of violence perpetrated by their sex.

Gah, I'm just fucked off by it all.

I feel same :(

@Graffitiqueen

Do men get catcalled when they are running by other men?

Do men get lewd comments about their boobs from other men?

Do men get touched up on trains, in nightclubs etc by other men?

Do men get an aggressive response when being chatted up by another man and they say no?

My 15 year old daughter had to give up running in lockdown as every, and I do mean every , time she went running she would be catcalled from cars, vans slow down for a better look or men shout something as she went past. We bought a treadmill

Has anyone seen the clip from Daniel Sloss' stand up? (Not RTFT).

I love the bit where he says 9 out of 10 men may be good but when 1 is not and the other 9 do nothing then they may as well not fucking be there.

Loving this thread and how people are talking as if there are no female murderers or females that commit violence, of course its less prevalent by far, but it does exist so please don't talk as if it doesn't.

[quote ithinkigetit]**@AndAPartridgeInABearTree* I only have DDs*
I think the posters with DSs are going to see where the OP is coming from here.[/quote]
I have a son and of course I worry about him too but it’s totally not the same.
I am pretty sure nobody will shout things about his body when he walks past age 13 for a start. I am pretty sure he will be able to walk through a crowd without someone grabbing his bottom. I am pretty sure if he is ever attacked nobody will ask what he was wearing or why he didn’t stay in a group

@DoormatBob

I was meant to quote the poster who asked what someone's DH had actively done to help?

As a non violent man I don't happen to know or associate with violent men but accept it?

Only once years ago I was aware of domestic violence with partners sisters boyfriend but police already involved. Honestly what could I do as a fellow man?

Dear Doormat what could I do as a fellow man

Well here are a few starters.

Next time you hear men discussing the size of a woman’s breasts, (not many of those to the pound, that’s more than a handful etc) call them out on it.

Next time you see a calendar displaying a half naked or naked woman to sell car parts ask the person whose calendar it is to take it down.

Next time you hear someone cat calling a woman in the street tell them to stfu.

Next time you see a colleague leaning over a woman at her desk tell him to step back out of her space.

Next time you get caught short in the street then do what women do, hold on until you find a public toilet or wait until you get home.

Next time a friend tells a joke in the pub which is sexist, demeaning or denigrates women ask them to explain why they think the joke is funny.

And talking about the violence you were aware of, there’s a lot you can do if it happens again. I heard a woman crying outside my house one night, long story, her boyfriend was there, I saw him push her and hit her. I went out, called over to her, phoned the police. He was still there , very drunk, shouting at both of us. Luckily the police came very quickly. It would have been nice if one of my many male neighbours had come out to support us until the police arrived, they must have heard, it was all very loud. But not one big strong man came out.

@katmarie

Is anyone else just fucking angry all the time about this? A tweet that doesn't even mention men, just describes women's experiences, and it's 'what about teh menz?' 'Namalt' 'stop demonising men' 'frame the argument nicely' etc etc.

God I just want to explode. We are talking about women, about their lives, their experiences, their wholy justifiable fears. You want to talk about men, fine, go start your own discussion, somewhere else. We are women and we have the right to talk about our experiences, and our fears, and our fears for our children. And by God we have the right to demand that men do something to address the vast number of incidents of violence perpetrated by their sex.

Gah, I'm just fucked off by it all.

yep all of that!

@MumsTheWordFact

Loving this thread and how people are talking as if there are no female murderers or females that commit violence, of course its less prevalent by far, but it does exist so please don't talk as if it doesn't.

You're right it is less prevalent BY A HUGE SWATHE. Overwhelmingly so almost to the point of irrelevance in this discussion (not irrelevant in individual cases of course but it's not a problem in the same vein at all).

@Graffitiqueen

Do men get catcalled when they are running by other men?

Do men get lewd comments about their boobs from other men?

Do men get touched up on trains, in nightclubs etc by other men?

Do men get an aggressive response when being chatted up by another man and they say no?

Interesting last point - I've seen several men get very, very angry when they get chatted up by another man. And of course, these are the same men who perve on women all the time - they don't like being looked at in the same way they look at us.

This is ridiculous on so many levels.

• As if men worry about getting into an Uber, as if they text each other when they come home or walk with keys in their hands etc. My husband would laugh at this notion and so would all of my male friends. In fact they are the ones to worry about me getting home after a night out.
• the violence is not the same - we get attacked specifically for being women, men get attacked cause other MEN are twats.
• whyyyyyyyyyyy is it okay to make it about men??? That's so flipping misogynistic in the first place. Any single topic where women discuss difficulties - men have to butt in and be like yeah well what about us?? They cannot stand not to diminish and dismiss women's problems by making it all about themselves. Domestic violence? Yeah well mean get beat up too. Rape epidemic? Yeah well it happens to men too. Never mind that they're separate effing issues and that the sheer numbers do not compare.

Jesus Christ OP, get a grip.

Do you have a problem with people campaigning to raise funds for the fight against breast cancer OP, as breast cancer is a type of cancer that predominantly impacts women? Is it unfair that they aren’t campaigning for funds for a type of cancer that men have more of? Perhaps we should stop bothering looking for solutions to breast cancer, and only focus on prostate cancer?