The men I know feel like this too ...

[Givitarest]

This "Every woman you know" meme is trending on social media. But men are in danger from violent men too and, in fact, are much more likely to be a target. With reference to Jess Phillips, if a politician were to read out the names of all the men who had died at the hands of other men, as well as the women, it would be a very long list indeed. If society has "just accepted" dead women then we have just accepted dead men too.
I fear for my sons' safety, and give them very similar safety advice as I would if they were daughters. My husband has always taken similar measures to the things on this list (whilst also avoiding walking behind lone women etc) and has had more negative personal experiences than I have. So can people please stop sharing memes that demonise men? It is 'misandry' ... the antonym to mysogyny ... and the movement against violence will not win widespread support unless it is more appropriately framed.

I’m desperate to learn the “correct” way for women to discuss the violence men commit against us, so that the Not All Men crew can have a night off from policing women’s language. Can anyone educate me?

TheSmallAssassin i completely agree. I was once assaulted in full view in a bar. His mates were trying to calm me and my friends down - he's a lovely guy really, he's a loving dad, he's just too drunk. The bouncer that we spoke to simply advised us to move to a different part of the bar. It's normalised - this is the problem.

We have been quiet about this for too long - how many of us have been groped at gigs, had disgusting things yelled at us by men in vans? I had the latter as a 13 year old school girl, walking home in my uniform. When I've spoken to my friends, it appears I'm not alone in this.

The solution to the prevalence of male violence is raise boys like we raise girls. Raise the position and values of women and girls. Don't see them as 'less', don't under value them and their paid and unpaid contribution to making the world go round. We are getting it right with females: the proportions of females who hurt, rape and murder other humans is very very small. We need to get males into that same position. For everyone. And that starts with raising the status and attributes of being female.

I support a charity that supports people with learning disabilities. Nobody is screaming 'but people have physical disabilities too'

Speak for yourself @HUCKMUCK. I love to phone up donkey sanctuaries and scream: "WHAT ABOUT THE SQUIRRELS?"
(I could start my own squirrel charity, but hey... )

1 in 4 girls are cat called in the street whilst wearing their school uniform. In their school uniform

So theses girls are experiencing that from someone's dad, husband, uncle etc.

All I can think OP is that the reality of male violence is causing you such fear that as a consequence you can’t bear to believe that as a woman your world is so very unsafe and that you are surrounded by perpetrators. It’s easier to focus on male on male violence and minimise the abject fear felt by women ergo you.

Oh no no no no no - yes!

That's how normalised it is.

And we, women, insist we don't know any man like that!

The problem is that men do not think it agreed

Even my gentle fella doesn’t worry about coming up against some burly thug while out running

It’s disingenuous to suggest that I yes an equal problem

Assassin that's interesting about men knowing instinctively which of their sex is dangerous. Predators know to hide this to their prey.

@ThighsofSteel

My 6'3" 19yo DS finishes work at 2am and has a 10 min walk home.

He walks down the middle of the residential streets because he thinks it makes him safer from attack by people lurking in shadows.

However, that is something of a red herring for the current debate. No one is giving men advice that curtails their freedom.

Exactly this. My 17 year old 6'7" DS goes for a half hour walk most evenings. Every time I remind him to be aware of what's going on around him and to just run if his gut tells him to

His 11 year old sister is unlikely to ever have the freedom to consider a solitary evening walk a viable option for exercise.

@tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz exactly. How many grown women catcall and leer and harrass boys in school uniforms?

We are taught, in fact shamed, into not doing that. We need to give that message to everyone, if they have a penis or a vagina. No more fond chuckling of 'Boys will be boys'.

@tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz

1 in 4 girls are cat called in the street whilst wearing their school uniform. In their school uniform

So theses girls are experiencing that from someone's dad, husband, uncle etc.

It's a fucking disgrace isn't it.

How many men have a system in place where, after a night out and they've all got their respective taxis home, they all must drop another in the group a short text to say "Home safe"?

@PegasusReturns

I have teen DSs and DDs.

The risks they face are different. Their opportunities to avoid violence different. The types of violence suffered are different.

Just because men suffer violence too does not negate the need to protect women.

Whilst is it not all men, it nearly always is a man.

Absolutely this.

I also have adult children of both sexes and agree entirely, I would also add that the risk to my girls is higher than that to my boys.

I find the 'every woman' bullshit insulting. Yes, I take steps to ensure my safety, but I ask my DP to do the same thing. If I had a son or a daughter, I'd tell them both the same things to stay safe.
We can't and won't ever eradicate violence. And yes, women are easier targets. I don't believe it's victim blaming to say we should take steps to protect ourselves...it's just common sense.

Men aren't raped and murdered because they are men. And they are not held responsible for their own assaults

Women are raped and murdered because they are women. And they are blamed for it.

@SweetPetrichor

I find the 'every woman' bullshit insulting. Yes, I take steps to ensure my safety, but I ask my DP to do the same thing. If I had a son or a daughter, I'd tell them both the same things to stay safe. We can't and won't ever eradicate violence. And yes, women are easier targets. I don't believe it's victim blaming to say we should take steps to protect ourselves...it's just common sense.

You haven’t actually read the thread, have you?

Sweet can you suggest what my DD 12 can do differently when walking home from school in uniform to prevent unwanted sexual attention from another woman's husband/dad/brother/uncle? You know, expressions such as "You'd get it".

Just because men suffer violence too does not negate the need to protect women.

Hear, hear.

My 20 year old son (6ft 3, well-built) has been home from university throughout the pandemic. Quite early in the first lockdown he suggested going out for a walk one evening, about 9 p.m.
Me: "But it's dark . . ."
Him: "So?"
We both realised at the same time, with shock, our very different perspectives on this.

Going out for a walk with him after dinner for 20-30 mins in the evening and having brilliant chats has been one of the unexpected joys of the pandemic for me.

I have two boys who are mid and late teens. I don't like them going out at night because yes they are at risk of violence. However, women are subjected to far more harassment, sexual assault, unwanted touching and pop the risk of violence on top and tell me who has it worse?
I've raised my sons not to be dicks, but sadly who knows what culture of toxic masculinity they are subjected to when they are with their peers ?

@AmandaHugenkiss

I’ve spoken to many men in my life over the years, and it never crosses their minds not to run on their own in the dark, not to walk home that mile late at night rather than take a taxi, not to take a long walk across isolated moorland on their own. They just can’t grasp what it is to life your life in fear of attack. I don’t think it’s the same thing.

I agree

And men saying they know what we feel like is the male female version of black/white lives matter

Yet another attempt at undermining a legitimate issue that disproportionately affects women.

No. You're wrong.

(And you can take your 'more appropriate framing' i.e. 'tell us things we want to hear, in a nice voice, while smiling, or we won't listen to you' (not that we'll take any notice anyway but we enjoy humiliating you) and shove it back down the coersive, misogynistic sewer it came from).

Women are killed by MEN.
Men are killed by MEN.

The problem is male violence.

If men want to take action against the men who threaten their safety, great. Good luck to them.

That choice, that need, does nothing to diminish the need for men to take action against the men who threaten the safety of women.

The fact is that most men will know men who threaten women's safety, certainly their feelings of safety, through their language, attitudes and all those small everyday behaviours that add up to the normalisation of toxic masculinity. There's an obvious, everyday opportunity there.

Many men will not know the sort of men who brawl outside pubs, join gangs, control the drug trade, or start knife fights.

Give over, OP. How often are you campaigning, tweeting, worrying, writing, trying to get people interested in violence against men? Daily? Weekly? Monthly?

or only when the conversation turns yet again to male violence against women?

You have sons? You worry about them? Well you should, men as a class are violent. I have daughters, i worry about them being raped and murdered because they are girls and because men as a class are violent.

And "misandry" i nearly bust a rib laughing at that.

What is it about the conversation trying to find answers to male violence towards women makes you uncomfortable? The worry that one day it may be one of your sons? Because so many women have a story about things that range from being made uncomfortable to being raped and everything in between, there must be a lot of men at it. A few of them would have to be at it 24/7 otherwise, and i don't think that's likely, is it?

Hop
On over to the the thread where a delivery drive tried to run OP over because she challenged him. Or the one where a young girl on a placement is being harassed by an older colleague.

Women often try and see it from other perspectives. Men often don’t - especially in when change is involved.

We have the right to focus on the issues we experience, overwhelmingly. I’m sorry but let’s not side track anymore. And yes if that means ignoring other issues to focus on that- then yes.

So, to everyone out there who want to derail this conversation, to paraphrase Kamala Harris “We are speaking. LISTEN”