The men I know feel like this too ...

[Givitarest]

This "Every woman you know" meme is trending on social media. But men are in danger from violent men too and, in fact, are much more likely to be a target. With reference to Jess Phillips, if a politician were to read out the names of all the men who had died at the hands of other men, as well as the women, it would be a very long list indeed. If society has "just accepted" dead women then we have just accepted dead men too.
I fear for my sons' safety, and give them very similar safety advice as I would if they were daughters. My husband has always taken similar measures to the things on this list (whilst also avoiding walking behind lone women etc) and has had more negative personal experiences than I have. So can people please stop sharing memes that demonise men? It is 'misandry' ... the antonym to mysogyny ... and the movement against violence will not win widespread support unless it is more appropriately framed.

Another tweet for you, OP, I thought it made an interesting point.

twitter.com/krooes/status/1369802784409845767?s=19

And YY to women under reporting.

I started my career as a criminal lawyer. I have prosecuted and defended serious sexual assaults, including rape.

One of the hardest things about my DDs getting older is that I knew, if they were raped, there was a cut off age after which I couldn’t in all good consciousness advise them to report it.

The likelihood of being believed and getting justice is so vanishingly rare; the trauma so amplified by the process that I wouldn’t do that to them.

We should be able to discuss male violence and misogyny, centring women's lived experience and justifiable fears, without someone doing a NAMALT

It's not all men but it's ALWAYS men.

Women rightly fear male violence and harassment in a way that permeates their lives beyond anything men can imagine (clearly)

Living under such constant fear and threat is not comparable to anything experienced by men.
Except perhaps those in certain minority groups. Or a war zone.

@DoormatBob do you challenge men when you hear them make rape jokes? Do you argue with men who say women are asking for it, or that women should change their behaviour, or that false rape accusations are a widespread issue?

Maybe you live in a utopia where these things don’t happen, but I expect that’s not the case. And if you aren’t calling these things out when you see them, you’re part of the problem.

@Naunet

What’s your point OP? You want women to shut up and stop talking about the violence and abuse against them carried out by men, because it makes other men feel bad? Or is it OK to talk about it as long as we go to great lengths to highlight Not All Men and maybe highlight lots of good things men have done too?

No, I want to support a campaign to stop violence, but can"t support it at the moment because much of the language being used is offensive.

@DoormatBob if you have sons, teach them how to treat women as human beings and lead from example. If you have daughters, teach them they are human beings and lead by example. Make your relationship with your DP a 50/50 thing when it comes to chores and childcare if it isn’t already. Stand with women when they say there needs to be a change and explain to your kids why. Believe those women that tell you they have been harassed and assaulted.

It’s systemic change that needs to happen not big gestures. Be a part of that.

I don't understand your issue. Men are also at risk of male violence, so male violence is a problem that needs addressing, yes?

I would suggest that it is up to men to step up and join women in denouncing male violence. If men feel they are being attacked because of these campaigns then I would suggest they need to look at their behaviour. Men I know that have daughters are very aware that men are a massive problem for their daughters.
Where do you think the stereotype of a man greeting his daughters new boyfriend at the door with a shotgun comes from. Men know men. Male violence isn't a surprise to them. Misogyny isn't a surprise to them.

YABU OP! How do we avoid this happening again if we don't have a conversation about it?
A man killed Sarah when she was simply walking home.
As women we live our lives in fear of an attack everytime we walk out the door at night.
My DD is 13 and we constantly talk about keeping her safe ( walking on busy streets, not sit in the upper deck of the bus)..
It shouldn't be like this!
Some men are the problem therefore we need to include all men.
My suggestion would be to start at a younger age. The amount of misogynist comments my DD hears at school!! There's a lot of work to do!

@DoormatBob

I was meant to quote the poster who asked what someone's DH had actively done to help?

As a non violent man I don't happen to know or associate with violent men but accept it?

Only once years ago I was aware of domestic violence with partners sisters boyfriend but police already involved. Honestly what could I do as a fellow man?

When was the last time you called out another man on ‘banter’ at work? When was the last time you noticed a man catcalling a woman in the street and challenged him? When was the last time you noticed a women looking uncomfortable because a man was walking too close behind her and called out to him to hang back or cross the road because he’s scaring her? When was the last time you noticed a women in your workplace receiving endless calls and texts from her boyfriend and checked in with her or her manager in case she’s in a coercive controlling relationship and needs help to escape?

When was the last time you noticed the world women inhabit can be impacted by your actions as a man, because men have power?

@TwoBreakingIntoOne

Was your husband wearing shorts and why was he walking alone in risky places?

Tell your husband not to go out alone at night. Make sure he's home by a certain time Make sure he always walks in the light Tell him to have his keys in his hand Tell him to phone a friend while he's out so that if he's attacked the friend hears it and reports it Give him money to get a taxi home Be his chaperone or go and collect him

Probably safest to keep him and any other male relatives you have at home.

Tell him not to flaunt his masculine attractiveness.

Can I ask, has there ever been a campaign to save children from violence that people haven’t hijacked to scream “but what about the men?! They suffer too!!!” Ive never seen that happen but I have seen campaigns to highlight issues like violence against them hijacked with “but what about men” a lot. Tonnes.

the movement against violence will not win widespread support unless it is more appropriately framed

The current pitch of the campaign is alienating a massive number of people who would otherwise be supportive

Ah yes. Those legions of men who would care about the things women are dealing with, who would be great allies to women, who would help rebuild the world in a better way so women weren’t assaulted and harassed and raped - if only women framed it in a nicer sweeter way that paid more attention to the men. You might think they just don’t give a fuck, based on all the evidence of them not giving a fuck, but the not-giving-a-fuck-ness is actually only the sad consequence of a bad PR campaign by women. Bad women. Be better! Be nicer!

It’s like all the women you see in shit relationships going “how can I explain to him how hurtful this is for me?”, still acting like he would care if only he understood. If he was going to care, he’d care already.

"No, I want to support a campaign to stop violence, but can"t support it at the moment because much of the language being used is offensive."

What exactly is offensive about the twitter post you shared?

[quote TheSmallAssassin]Another tweet for you, OP, I thought it made an interesting point.

twitter.com/krooes/status/1369802784409845767?s=19[/quote]
To extend that point, men who attack women aren't easily spotted by men.

It is not in any way socially acceptable to other men for men to attack women. We aren't all turning a blind eye

@Givitarest are you seriously, seriously saying that you can’t support a campaign against sexual violence because it’s not pleasant enough for you?

Literally how can you justify that? How can you possibly prioritise your preference for politeness over the lives of abused and murdered women?

I’m a mum of both and I worry about all of them equally. I’m under no illusion that boys and men are safe. They’re not. Male on male violence is terrifying.

When my ex used to live here, he would actively avoid having certain streets around this area at night because he felt unsafe. And I couldn’t bloody blame him. He could have been jumped/mugged/stabbed, and those things have happened around here in the past to MALES. Some people would snigger and tell him to man up if they heard about his worries, and those people are part of the problem.
I have 3 sons. My eldest starts high school next September. Too bloody right I worry about him walking on his own and who he will come across at his new school. Same goes with my other 2 sons as they get older.

I also have 1 daughter. When she is older I will be terrified for her too. And at the moment I have a 10 year old boy who will go out in to harshness of the big wide world first....

Ignore “having”.

Please give my apologies to the men you know and tell them that as soon as women have sorted the issue of male violence against them we'll crack on with fixing male violence against men. If at any point they wanted to pitch in with the effort they could also express their anger and outrage rather than feel the need to tell us NAMALT because it's far more important to avoid hurting their feelings than addressing the issue of male violence.

@Givitarest What do you find offensive? It seems to be the part where women are talking about the violence carried out against them, and pointing out that it’s carried out by men?

@DoormatBob

I was meant to quote the poster who asked what someone's DH had actively done to help?

As a non violent man I don't happen to know or associate with violent men but accept it?

Only once years ago I was aware of domestic violence with partners sisters boyfriend but police already involved. Honestly what could I do as a fellow man?

thefixpodcast.org/episodes/how-to-be-a-male-ally-at-work-david-smith-and-brad-johnson

Why?

Why is it such a bad thing that women discuss the things they are threatened by?

Why are you berating women who are scared?

Why are you not berating men who are violent?

Maybe because you can't identify them just by looking?

Well, neither can I!

And that's the fucking point!

It's always the fucking point!

@GoldenOmber

the movement against violence will not win widespread support unless it is more appropriately framed

The current pitch of the campaign is alienating a massive number of people who would otherwise be supportive

Ah yes. Those legions of men who would care about the things women are dealing with, who would be great allies to women, who would help rebuild the world in a better way so women weren’t assaulted and harassed and raped - if only women framed it in a nicer sweeter way that paid more attention to the men. You might think they just don’t give a fuck, based on all the evidence of them not giving a fuck, but the not-giving-a-fuck-ness is actually only the sad consequence of a bad PR campaign by women. Bad women. Be better! Be nicer!

It’s like all the women you see in shit relationships going “how can I explain to him how hurtful this is for me?”, still acting like he would care if only he understood. If he was going to care, he’d care already.

Fuck yes. All of this.

My 6'3" 19yo DS finishes work at 2am and has a 10 min walk home.

He walks down the middle of the residential streets because he thinks it makes him safer from attack by people lurking in shadows.

However, that is something of a red herring for the current debate. No one is giving men advice that curtails their freedom.

It’s a pathetic meme which suggests the motivation for violence against the sexes is the same.

It isn’t. Why can’t we openly talk about something that is obvious to women? Most men aren’t bothered by what women perceive about them. It’s obvious. Women are less. Institutions which are male dominated don’t bother taking violence against women seriously, despite the greater harm potential, and the abuse of power.

They wring their hands. It’s a cheap gesture but worse are hand wringing memes about men. It goes to the self obsession, and lack of empathy.