The men I know feel like this too ...

[Givitarest]

This "Every woman you know" meme is trending on social media. But men are in danger from violent men too and, in fact, are much more likely to be a target. With reference to Jess Phillips, if a politician were to read out the names of all the men who had died at the hands of other men, as well as the women, it would be a very long list indeed. If society has "just accepted" dead women then we have just accepted dead men too.
I fear for my sons' safety, and give them very similar safety advice as I would if they were daughters. My husband has always taken similar measures to the things on this list (whilst also avoiding walking behind lone women etc) and has had more negative personal experiences than I have. So can people please stop sharing memes that demonise men? It is 'misandry' ... the antonym to mysogyny ... and the movement against violence will not win widespread support unless it is more appropriately framed.

@Pillowcase123

Who is killing men though OP?

It's not women right?

The problem here is male violence, regardless of who the victim is. The really question is how do we address that?

@Pillowcase123

I agree with you

Check out Jackson Katz TEDTalk. He speaks eloquently on this

I think it's a lot of bollocks to prove a point

I really don't. Although I don't think it's to do with the motives outlined by pp. I have seen it with my own eyes. In my case i would have stopped anyway but I did think about whether being with my girlfriend made it easier

Women can't return male violence.

@Chanjer

I think it's a lot of bollocks to prove a point

I really don't. Although I don't think it's to do with the motives outlined by pp. I have seen it with my own eyes. In my case i would have stopped anyway but I did think about whether being with my girlfriend made it easier

Didn't explain myself very well, I mean that he would walk on by probably, I also have seen people who do that, but because he doesn't want to bother himself getting involved, or because it's not his problem, which are hardly the actions of a good person full stop. He'd be a bit 🤷 can't help there because you all keep telling me I might be a rapist. He wouldn't walk on by because he's 'listened' to women saying they feel under threat, that he realises he might be viewed as a threat, understands the reasons behind that, respects them and that's why he doesn't get involved, like is being implied. It's a way of saying all you women who view all men as a potential threat, because you can't tell the difference are robbing yourselves of the help of the good ones. The fact that he could summon help quite easily in most cases has not been mentioned though. From my pov, maybe I wouldn't approach a man lying bleeding on the pavement if there was no one else about (although actually, I probably would) but I'd summon help, from the area around me, from emergency services so that I could help, but without putting myself in danger too if it were a ruse.

TitchGreen

Thanks for the link. I also looked at further documents relating to the Florida case. I don't think the case is a good example of how perception of circumstances can change overtime or vary according to the individuals involved, whilst that can be true in some situations, the complainant is this situation appears to have been acting maliciously, in the end her case was not upheld.

The video was taking the piss out of people who claim the rules of appropriate social interaction with colleagues are confusing, specifically the "PC gone mad" brigade, the scenarios are exaggerated for comic effect. Whilst I have been on the receiving end of far too much inappropriate behaviour from men it's not a daily occurrence, although my interactions with men are, which tells me most absolutely do understand what is and isn't acceptable they simply choose to push the boundaries because they can.

Even the case of giving a woman flowers could be considered harassment

It could depending on the circumstances. If you're congratulating someone on a promotion or getting married for example it would be difficult to interpret that as sexual unless you wrote something inappropriate on the card. If you are someone's boss, gave them flowers and suggested meeting for dinner to discuss your application for promotion then I don't believe that's ambiguous or that anyone acting in such a way would think it was.

Men are not so hapless or such socially inept creatures they need our sympathy because everytime they're sleazy its accidental.

I’m not sure what you all expect decent men to do (you know the ones that are evil).

I asked dh if he would go over to someone wolfwhistling at a lady and tell them to stop and he said “no because I wouldn’t want to get beaten up or worse”

I asked him if he would call out his friends if they started a conversation objectifying a woman. And again he said no. He asked me when women are going to stop doing that with Tom hardy on CBeebies story time etc.

Valid points.

@VerityWibbleWobble

sadly you could be lying bleeding and he'd still cross the road to avoid you as would most of his friends. Such is our culture, that man is going to attack you or I'm not getting involved.

Your husband and his chums would actually ignore and walk past a woman who was lying in the road potentially dying? Is that what you're saying?

I am lost for words, I'm never lost for words.

This comes from an incident some years ago (80s) where one of his mates was given a kicking by the police and was going to be arrested after he tried to stop a fight between a young man and a girl. Police turned up and gave both his mate and the lad a belt but it turns out the lad was her boyfriend and they then said it was his mates fault. It was only when the bouncers from a pub opposite who saw what had happened explained he'd been trying to stop it the police let him off. Their 'unofficial' advice was don't get involved, walk away, call the police if you want.

Advice they follow, had the bouncer not spoken up he'd have been in big trouble.

@2021ismyyear

I’m not sure what you all expect decent men to do (you know the ones that are evil).

I asked dh if he would go over to someone wolfwhistling at a lady and tell them to stop and he said “no because I wouldn’t want to get beaten up or worse”

I asked him if he would call out his friends if they started a conversation objectifying a woman. And again he said no. He asked me when women are going to stop doing that with Tom hardy on CBeebies story time etc.

Valid points.

Shouting "Get your tits out" or "Get your gums round this" from a van at a woman

Is apparently the same as -

Me watching Tom Hardy on CBeebies and thinking "Gosh he's flippin gorgeous "

Are you thick? And why won't your DH call out his twat mate if they did what you described?

@2021ismyyear

I asked him if he would call out his friends if they started a conversation objectifying a woman. And again he said no. He asked me when women are going to stop doing that with Tom hardy on CBeebies story time etc.

If your emotional intelligence is incapable of understanding this discussion without having to resort to some women finding Tom Hardy attractive, then I don’t think the conversation suffers from your absence. Pack up your straw man and go home.

Huh? Goodness me. Where did I say my husband said “show us your tits”?!

I’m sorry but most men will not call out their friends for what they say is harmless banter.

And I’ve heard women say a lot more things about Tom hardy than isn’t he lovely. Get real!!!

@2021ismyyear

I’m not sure what you all expect decent men to do (you know the ones that are evil).

I asked dh if he would go over to someone wolfwhistling at a lady and tell them to stop and he said “no because I wouldn’t want to get beaten up or worse”

I asked him if he would call out his friends if they started a conversation objectifying a woman. And again he said no. He asked me when women are going to stop doing that with Tom hardy on CBeebies story time etc.

Valid points.

Again, lost for words.

Women finding certain men attractive is not a valid point, not at all.

Men leering at 12 year old girls in uniform yelling obscenities is in no way the same as looking at Tom Hardy and thinking he's attractive.

Men leering at 12 year old girls in uniform yelling obscenities is in no way the same as looking at Tom Hardy and thinking he's attractive.

Yeah, that got me thinking about when a man struck up a phone conversation with my then year 7 girl, on the bus home from school, and then got off at her stop and started to follow her home 😡 Girls have to out up with this shit from a very young age.

Sometimes people say things and I find it hard to be sure if they are being deliberately obtuse or are just utterly, relentlessly, thoroughly stupid.

@2021ismyyear

Huh? Goodness me. Where did I say my husband said “show us your tits”?!

I’m sorry but most men will not call out their friends for what they say is harmless banter.

And I’ve heard women say a lot more things about Tom hardy than isn’t he lovely. Get real!!!

You know damn well I wasn't referring to your DH.

Harmless banter? Wow.

All these predatory rapist, murdering, assaulting men, all these men that leer at women and young girls out of car and van windows yelling obscenities are someone's son or father or brother or husband or boyfriend and when they get caught we always hear the same old, same old crap spouted about how they were such lovely men really, it's already started in the Sarah Everard case.

It's not the same one man committing all these acts, therefore due to the size and reach of MN, the number of these offences both low and high level that the law of averages says it is entirely possible that the a son, a brother, a father, a husband of someone on MN could be one of them. Not palatable but not unlikely.

As for the Tom Hardy comparison - when he walks down the street to collect his children from school does he have to navigate women shouting out of their car windows at him to get his cock out?

This comes from an incident some years ago (80s) where one of his mates was given a kicking by the police and was going to be arrested after he tried to stop a fight between a young man and a girl. Police turned up and gave both his mate and the lad a belt but it turns out the lad was her boyfriend and they then said it was his mates fault. It was only when the bouncers from a pub opposite who saw what had happened explained he'd been trying to stop it the police let him off. Their 'unofficial' advice was don't get involved, walk away, call the police if you want.

Firstly, well done for continually shoe horning how bad women are too into a conversation sparked by the death of a woman, at the hands of a man who was supposed to be not just a good guy, but one of the very best and one that women should feel safer around. And one who is not isolated in doing that as statistics and data show.
Secondly, the attitude of the police, that is a reflection of the justice system and society, is something that people are trying to identify, talk about and change.
I believe your DH and his mate were told that, because I've been told something very similar.
Me and 13yo DD waiting for a bus, sitting down. Man approaches, lays on some patter, asks us to join him in the pub. I decline. He doesn't want to take no for an answer, targets DD, she says no. He then proceeds to tell us that we'll regret it, because he's a good fuck, and DD looks like she could do with one to put a smile on her face. I get up and in his face at this point, because I'm angry and because I feel at a disadvantage sitting down. I tell him to go away, that my DD is a child and we don't want to talk to him. I don't swear, I don't shout, but yes it's clear I'm angry. He then steps towards me, his tone changes to aggression and tells me I'm a stuck up cunt and he's just being nice, and no wonder we're miserable because the way we behave puts men off and all we need is a good shag (not word for word, it was a few years ago now, but general gist) At which point the police drive past, and stop because they see basically, me and him squaring up to each other. He's sent on his way, and I'm told off for even responding to him, for 'antagonising' him, told we should have just walked to the next bus stop if we didn't want to be treated like that. Told we should have ignored him.
I have no issues with him approaching initially. I really do have issues with his continued 'perseverance' and the things he said, his reaction to 'no'. I also have a problem with the way the police made it all about us being there, rather than how he behaved, about how we were told we should have done something different than sit waiting for a bus, and him? "Go home mate, these ladies don't want to talk to you" that was it.
The attitude is so entrenched in society that even the people meant to be dealing with this shit would rather take the easy option than give him a bollocking for behaving that way. No one (except me) told him his behaviour was out of line, but they told me mine was.

@2021ismyyear

I’m not sure what you all expect decent men to do (you know the ones that are evil).

I asked dh if he would go over to someone wolfwhistling at a lady and tell them to stop and he said “no because I wouldn’t want to get beaten up or worse”

I asked him if he would call out his friends if they started a conversation objectifying a woman. And again he said no. He asked me when women are going to stop doing that with Tom hardy on CBeebies story time etc.

Valid points.

Turns a blind eye and whataboutery, yeah he's not an ally to women. He might be a 'good' one to you but he's part of the problem.

Sorry OP but your post reads to me ‘but what about the men!. Women, don’t think that you’re the only ones it happens to men too!’ We all know it’s not ALL men that are a danger to women and we know that yes men can me in danger too but their risk is far lower than a woman.

When my friends and I were 14 (2011) we went to a birthday house party. The girl was really popular and born in September so most of our year and the year above attended - max age of 16.

At around 1am her dad came home, he was with his friends and they were all drunk. They all started shouting sexual things to party guests like show us your tits, grabbing their bums, one of his friends asked a girl to go home with him etc. Bare in mind this was his daughter’s house party - he knew full well alllll the girls he/his mates were leering at were her age or younger. He knew full well we were under age and his actions amounted to nonce behaviour.

It was creepy but brushed under the carpet as she was so popular and her dad had a respectable job.

Men treat the females in their lives well, but treat females outside of their peer group like trash. It really is a conversation we all need to have with the all men in our lives. They are the ones committing the “low level” shit that gets passed aside as “boys being boys”, or turning a blind eye to their friends

Maverickess Goddamn that was a tough read. What a horrible, horrible incident. And to be chastised for 'antagonising' your aggressor... that leaves me speechless. There was no justice that day. No protection. Just another STFU approach.
And you know, judging by the police response to the allegations of one of their own (WC was a threat before he killed... and yet, there he was, armed and working, exposing himself one evening, murdering practically the next), we're still expected to put up and STFU and trust the police. LOL.
I lost all faith in the police the day my ex-husband knocked me unconscious in front of our son. The neighbours called the police. What ensued was months of sexual harassment by the arresting officer. It was one of the most terrible situations I'd been in. Years have passed since. I can't even think about it. It's like a layer cake of trauma. Not one male- my son's father, the arresting officer, the all-male CPS team- was a protective force of good for me or my son. It was a dreadful realisation.

Until men feel fearful enough that they automatically offer to accompany their male friends safely to the car/safely into a taxi/walk them home, etc after nights out, I don’t think they’ll really understand how women feel.

I think we're expected to perpetuate men's compartmentalization of their bad behaviour. He's a doctor. He has a good home. His car can fit all 4 of his kids plus the two dogs. His wife is lovely. He works every hour God sends him. He invites all the neighbours to his annual barbecue. He also is addicted to violent porn where women are fucked within an inch of their lives. But he's an upstanding citizen and his kids are never late to school. So, you know, we'll let that dark shit slide.

You know, once I was told by a therapist (won't get into the ins and outs of my recovery) that in order to heal, I have to remember that the whole of the person is good, a small part is bad. All of us have good and bad parts. If I can remember the good, I can tell myself that this person may never inflict pain on others again. That person has the capacity to overcome those bad parts. This may be true. And I've reflected on that for so long but overwhelmingly, I wish I called Bullshit on the therapist. Because it felt like once again, I had to stifle my pain. 'Heal' by ignoring the small portion of bad shit that becomes 100% of your trauma and swallows you whole. The reality is that the good parts of that person inflicting their bad acts upon you recede into oblivion, don't matter, and don't stop that person from harming you or others. The good parts don't carry the weight in that person. They only allow them someplace to hide behind for a while. The good parts are a facade, a rest stop from the madness.

I don't think SE's family is ever going to look at the neighbourly, bike-fixing, child-rearing, cop badge-wearing, nice married guy good parts of WC and think, "We'll focus on those bits so that we can 'heal' and overcome the brutality, the bad parts he inflicted on our daughter."

@TheVanguardSix

The sad thing is, my memory was jogged when talking to DD about SE and the issues women face, and again by a pps post about the police and their advice. Stuff like this is minimised, even by me myself subconsciously, because actually, I've experienced far worse by comparison, and because the police, an institution I've been raised to respect, and others brush it off. I start to think I am overreacting, behaving wrongly myself, and again I adjust my behaviour, I insist DD adjust hers, so as not to put us in a situation where a man can abuse us.
That's not the answer is it? The answer is for men to stop abusing women, yet trying to start a conversation about it is met with a lot of NAMALT, don't be offensive to good men and men get hurt too, in other words, don't talk about it because it's uncomfortable and ultimately men's feelings are more important than women's safety, never mind their feelings.

What your therapist told you is a common theme, if you're not happy with how someone has behaved towards you then just don't feel that way.

So we are saying that because I had a son there is a small chance he will turn out to be a rapist/murderer.... or best case just an arsehole to women.

well unless you think that rapists and arsehole men spring fully formed from the earth and start to behave like that - yes there is a small chance he will be one. Somebody's sons are doing it, aren't they?

I asked him if he would call out his friends if they started a conversation objectifying a woman. And again he said no. He asked me when women are going to stop doing that with Tom hardy on CBeebies story time etc.

I get that your husband wouldn't stop something in the street - his choice. I have stepped in on occasion and it sometimes diffuses the situation when they realise they have really escalated.

Not calling out his mates? fuck him, then. Because that's just allowing the low level shit to be acceptable and it does take something away from all of us.

A bit of letching over Tom Hardy is ok. If it gets to the point that women are grabbing Tom-Hardy-alikes off the street and hurting them, or catcalling men "phwoar! buns like Tom Hardy guffaw guffaw" then that would be wrong. But bloody hell, we are all allowed to appreciate a fine figure of a man.

I've been really shocked that in some groups I'm in people are just responding with men get hurt too.